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  #12421  
Old 08.09.2020, 15:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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13th worldwide with no measures at all?

They did have measures.
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  #12422  
Old 08.09.2020, 15:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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They did have measures.
You're right. One or two minor restrictions that hardly mattered, certainly not compared to what most of the rest of the world had and has to endure. Clearly, that would have been more than enough.
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  #12423  
Old 08.09.2020, 15:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder wheter it is ok to compare GDP falls this way. Can we assume that all the (scandinavien) economies depend on exports or foreign GDP's in general to the same degree?
Honest question btw.

If not, than this is not a viable comparison imho.
Honest and very complicate to answer question at the same time.

Yes, Sweden exports goods and services. If their customers slowed down, the local policy had no effect on exports. Goods exports slowed down https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statis...rade-partners/

Also, Sweden closed for a while their border to all seasonal workers for the rest of Europe. So forestry, agriculture, mining and other jobs to be done in the middle of the tundra lacked a lot of workers. The no-lockdown is bit of an idealization or a myth.

If trading neighbors slowed down and Sweden also slowed down due to seasonal worker scarcity, what was won by the local policy in economical terms? I just know this is a question to be made but I'm not qualified to answer it properly.
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  #12424  
Old 08.09.2020, 17:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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13th worldwide with no measures at all? Well done Sweden
Comparing Sweden to its ideologically, demographically, and economically similar neighbours, rather than to the western European and South American countries (and the USA) that have posted worse death rates, is what is relevant here. Did you miss the part about Sweden's death rate being more than 5x that of any of its neighbours? Well done Sweden.
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  #12425  
Old 08.09.2020, 17:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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You're right. One or two minor restrictions that hardly mattered, certainly not compared to what most of the rest of the world had and has to endure. Clearly, that would have been more than enough.
Actually no!
Swedish Minister for Health and Social Affairs Lena Hallengren;

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Life is not carrying on as normal.
Fundamentally, Sweden’s measures only differ from other countries in two regards: we are not shutting down schools for younger children or childcare facilities and we have no regulation that forces citizens to remain in their homes.
Source
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  #12426  
Old 08.09.2020, 17:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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Actually no!
Swedish Minister for Health and Social Affairs Lena Hallengren;



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Restaurants, shops, bars?
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  #12427  
Old 08.09.2020, 18:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Restaurants, shops, bars?
Social distancing required, table service only. Some bars and restaurants have been shut down by the government for ignoring these regulations.
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  #12428  
Old 08.09.2020, 18:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder wheter it is ok to compare GDP falls this way. Can we assume that all the (scandinavien) economies depend on exports or foreign GDP's in general to the same degree?
Honest question btw.

If not, than this is not a viable comparison imho.
What a strange question. The accepted method for comparing economies is by comparing their GDPs.

As it happens the Nordic economies are export-dependent but what has that to do with comparing their post COVID-19 economies?

coronavirus-nordicexports.png
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  #12429  
Old 08.09.2020, 18:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Social distancing required, table service only. Some bars and restaurants have been shut down by the government for ignoring these regulations.
In July they defined "Social distancing" as one metre, they also gave local authorities the power to enforce the rules and to close venues not complying.
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  #12430  
Old 08.09.2020, 18:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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This. By some/most people's logic, Sweden should be number 1. By far. And there's at least some chance they'll be 20th or whatever a few months down the road - jury's still out on that one of course.
You're ignoring a number of crucial factors in Sweden's favour.
1. No.3 Best public health care system in the world. Always be mindful that Lombardy was No.1.
2. Huge distances between major cities compared to other more densely populated nations where the cities 'bleed' into each other, e.g. Manchester/Salford, Leeds/Bradford. This was also a factor in Austria's favour.
3. A highly educated populace who largely took it upon themselves to take the isolation measures which they saw fit, regardless of what the government advice was.
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  #12431  
Old 08.09.2020, 19:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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You're ignoring a number of crucial factors in Sweden's favour.
1. No.3 Best public health care system in the world. Always be mindful that Lombardy was No.1.
2. Huge distances between major cities compared to other more densely populated nations where the cities 'bleed' into each other, e.g. Manchester/Salford, Leeds/Bradford. This was also a factor in Austria's favour.
3. A highly educated populace who largely took it upon themselves to take the isolation measures which they saw fit, regardless of what the government advice was.
So 1. You're saying the healthcare system actually is a factor? Who would've thought. Translation: the very very very few that were actually strained would've been strained with many other things too (and in fact are quite regularly, if one inquires a bit further). So to gloss over long-standing issues we punish the entire world? And that's not political?
2. Same here, many said from the beginning that density is obviously a factor. And yet even that doesn't explain why for instance Shanghai had "nothing" (cough) or why random places like Bergamo or Mulhouse (tiny towns - I mean really?) were hit comparably hard.
3. So again because some populations have no discipline everyone suffers? Most people well have some discipline if they see an obvious rationale. Forbidding things often has the opposite effect. And mind you that's a very rich people's problem or how in God's name are the Indian slums or Brazilian favelas supposed to "social distance" or countries with 50% employment in the informal sector "go into isolation"? Easy for the likes of us with office jobs to blab about home office and disinfecting hands a thousand times a day. That's not the reality for 90% of the world. Sweden oe not Sweden.
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  #12432  
Old 08.09.2020, 20:30
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Re: Coronavirus

Please thank or groan if you don't want to hear a single word about Sweden anymore.
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  #12433  
Old 08.09.2020, 20:39
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Re: Coronavirus

1. Obviously the level and standard of public health care is a factor in the result of treatment. Many countries have based the timing of their restrictions based upon the capacity and facilities of their health care systems. It's the primary reason Greece went into a strict lockdown with fines and curfews. Whilst they have excellent, highly qualified medical staff, their facilities are dilapidated in many areas. I've been a patient in one of the better Greek hospitals, but have visited family in others which were like UK wards in the 1970s.

2. Bergamo had the perfect storm of the Atalanta v Valencia match plus being the location of Milan's 3rd airport frequented by low cost carriers, so that a false equivalence. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-soc...er-11585752012
There's no way you can compare the population hubs of Switzerland with those of Sweden when you look at cities such as Lulea. The spread of the population there is more similar to that of Austria where, with the exception of Salzburg/Linz, the cities are physically further apart from each other and not practical commuting distances.

3. I never said "some populations have no discipline". We have many friends in India who took lockdown very seriously, perhaps because, like the Greeks, they put an enormous value of their elderly family members and have immense respect for them.
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  #12434  
Old 08.09.2020, 20:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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Please thank or groan if you don't want to hear a single word about Sweden anymore.
With pleasure.

Within the last 24hrs I've had long calls with my sis-in-law and a close friend regarding this story in my home town, the second secondary school to have been affected within a week.

'Entire year group at Wigan high school must self-isolate after confirmed coronavirus case'
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...-high-18893169
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  #12435  
Old 08.09.2020, 21:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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What a strange question. The accepted method for comparing economies is by comparing their GDPs.

As it happens the Nordic economies are export-dependent but what has that to do with comparing their post COVID-19 economies?

Attachment 140191
Yes but you didn't compare economies, did you?
You compared changes in GDP (due to covid and anti covid measurements). Its reasonable to give a thought about how the gdp is formed before doing that. Samaire postet something similar right afterwards, im on mobile and it's kinda pits to multiquote and rewrite again.
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  #12436  
Old 08.09.2020, 22:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes but you didn't compare economies, did you?
You compared changes in GDP (due to covid and anti covid measurements). Its reasonable to give a thought about how the gdp is formed before doing that. Samaire postet something similar right afterwards, im on mobile and it's kinda pits to multiquote and rewrite again.
Rich economies have strong GDPs, poor economies have weak GDPs.
Is that so hard to understand?

The following equation is used to calculate the GDP: GDP = C + I + G + (X – M) or GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government investment + government spending + (exports – imports).
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  #12437  
Old 08.09.2020, 22:11
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Re: Coronavirus

I enjoyed reading Hermann Cains tweet that Covid isn't as deadly as initially thought.

This came about 3 months after he ranted about masks, 2 months after he caught Covid, and about one month after his death from Covid.
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  #12438  
Old 08.09.2020, 22:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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I enjoyed reading Hermann Cains tweet that Covid isn't as deadly as initially thought.

This came about 3 months after he ranted about masks, 2 months after he caught Covid, and about one month after his death from Covid.
You forgot to mention that Cain struggled and yet survived Stage 4 Colon cancer in 2006. He was in a high risk, comorbidity category and should have taken safeguards/precautions which clearly he did not take. A shame on all levels as he underestimated his risk.
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  #12439  
Old 08.09.2020, 23:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's not the binary choice you're trying to make it to be. It simply isn't a matter of life and death for the 99.9% out there. I know this makes for a better narrative, but the facts don't support your argument. The alarmist zealots in this thread, some of which even left the forum, were all professing about how deadly the virus is. Well, now we know it's not nearly as lethal as feared. The next level of alarmism is about the professed long-term effects. Yet, no proper sample exists, it's all small, uncontrolled, limited and mainly anecdotal.

Luckily, governments are much smarter this time around and we won't ever enter another Covid lockdown as the detrimental effect on livelihoods, well-being and the economy is real for the 99.9%. The benefits of another lockdown are only in this forum.
I never said or expressed that it's a binary choice. That's why I had specifically stated in that post that wearing masks is one way to help control the spread of the virus while also keeping the economy open. What I said is that maybe it's a matter of which perspective you take -- whether that of the economy or that of trying to help save lives and keep more people from becoming seriously ill. The way I see it, wearing masks to help keep the economy open is the sensible middle ground between those two. Last Spring, we didn't have that option because masks weren't available for the general public.

I don't think you can judge the severity of the coronavirus according to death rates alone. The other day I watched a video where corona patients were talking about their experiences with having contracted the virus. Most of them were in their 40s or 50s. They did end up surviving from it, but they were expressing how awful it was and trying to get the message across that it is not something people want to get or should be carefree about getting or transmitting to others. One guy (in his 40s) said that he had assumed that he was low-risk but when he first became ill from it, he was convinced he was going to die when he arrived at the hospital because he could barely breathe. So I don't know... I guess I just don't view this as simply being a matter of how many people die from it but more in terms of how many people will physically suffer in general... or could.

The majority of us have the luxury of being rather far-removed from the reality of the situation in that we're not the ones working in a hospital, seeing patients struggle for air on a ventilator and seeing their kidneys fail, etc. or having a loved one in such a state. I think the doctors and nurses probably have a more realistic understanding of its reality. For most of us, it's just something we read about in the news and discuss in an online forum. But I guess it's easy to think of the virus as being something people are just being "alarmists" about until you actually get the virus yourself or someone that you love does. Is that when the reality of it really sinks in?
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  #12440  
Old 09.09.2020, 00:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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Is this your definition of "order of magnitude" i was certain you'd be entertaining, but i didn't imagine you'd be SO entertaining
I used to teach maths to underperforming kids back when i was doing my masters. I'm afraid your case is hopeless though.
No, this is my definition on the simplest math that can demonstrate that the chances of spreading COVID are definitely not less than they were in the spring. And if you need someone to explain to you what orders of magnitude means, then you are certainly qualified to teach remedial math and nothing more.

Here, maybe you can understand these numbers https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

But you don't really care about any explanation. You just come here to troll. All you have is snark and . That's basically all your arguments come down to. Otherwise you add zero to the discussion. So, dismissed.
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