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  #12501  
Old 09.09.2020, 20:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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Absolutely! I think the government did an outstanding job, considering the circumstances. The piss poor US response was blamed by some, in part, on the federalist system, but Switzerland is even more decentralized and managed to do a great job. Although I have heard many a Swiss grumble about the BAG, this Ausländer was pretty pleased.



Interesting about the undiagnosed cases - I think there might be something there, but I'm not sure how this affects disease severity. Anyway, for this we really need to know the seroprevalence, and what the actual protective immune response post infection is, considering the recent reports on reinfections. Maybe the lack of a huge second wave in some heavily hit, densely populated areas (NYC, London) is because of this. I think the seroprevalence was somewhere around 20% for NYC, and there was a study suggesting that some immune response to other coronaviruses gave some protection to many people, so maybe the combined effect leads to this. But honestly, I have no idea.

Incidentally, I'm participating in a long term seroprevalence study at the university where I work here in Zurich, and the first round of tests (taken in April) yielded a seroprevalence of 4%, for what it's worth. I think seroprevalence studies in Geneva around the same time were a bit higher, around 11%.
I think we can be relatively sure that reinfections are relatively rare or at the very least reduced to a minor infection? Has anybody hospitalised with covid had to go back into hospital with a new infection? Some places like France and Spain have seen relatively decent second waves so you would expect this to be the case if serious reinfection were possible? Particularly given that some covidiots will be predisposed to infection.
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Old 09.09.2020, 20:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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In my case, my grandmother is in her mid 80s. Either I don't visit her to avoid giving her Covid or I don't visit her and potentially she dies of something else having had a lonely year or two.
Yes, that's a very good point. I'm sure that given the choice most elderly people would rather take the risk and be able to their grandchildren, children, etc. The psychological stress caused by lack of social contact is much more harmful to health than a virus may be.

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  #12503  
Old 09.09.2020, 20:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, that's a very good point. I'm sure that given the choice most elderly people would rather take the risk and be able to their grandchildren, children, etc. The psychological stress caused by lack of social contact is much more harmful to health than a virus may be.
Last Sunday‘s Sunday Times carried a piece on this kind of tragedy. This brought many readers‘ comments of similar situations where elderly parents many with dementia cannot be visited in care homes since March - or at best only waved at through an outside window.

If Covid doesn‘t get them the measures to prevent them from getting it will kill them.

I have no answers or suggestions, sorry...
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  #12504  
Old 09.09.2020, 21:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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No one is saying they want to catch the virus! In the same way one wouldn't want to catch a nasty bout of the flu (which can also leave one drained for months afterwards). We should try and avoid catching the virus, but we should be sensible about the impact avoidance has on our lives at the same time.
Well, this is what you had written (and what my statement was in response to):

"Articles like this only stir up fear. You hardly ever read "bloke catches Covid, has mild symptoms and is back to work within 10 days", which the vast majority who catch it are. It all comes back to selling papers, stirring fear and peoples inherent inability to be able to judge risk."

So I naturally interpreted that as you implying that the virus isn't as big of a deal as the media has made it out to be since (according to you), the majority of people are back to work 10 days after they catch it. So my point was that even if that's true, I don't want to be responsible for passing that virus on to anyone else who might not be so fortunate. And I can't understand why scientists and doctors, etc. would be "fear mongering?" But apparently some people consider facts -- or the relaying of facts -- as stirring fear in people.

I don't think this is simply about selling newspapers, etc. This is a pandemic. Do you really think the media should try to downplay it for fear of being accused of fear-mongering? Should they not relay or report facts for fear of being accused of "stirring fear" in people? This is a pandemic, after all. Don't you think people should be a bit worried?

I know there are some people who think the lockdown was an overreaction, but the fact is, the numbers were skyrocketing back then, and I think the Swiss government felt obligated to do something about it. Look what was happening in Italy at the time. So yeah, the lockdown sucked, but it did bring the numbers down. And at the time, it seemed like our only feasible option to bring the pandemic under some degree of control. You can't just let a pandemic run its course without taking measures to try to protect people. If the Swiss government had done that, we'd be complaining about the number of deaths right now and that the government has 'blood on its hands.'
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  #12505  
Old 09.09.2020, 21:53
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Re: Coronavirus

There seem to be two clusters in nursing homes in Fribourg with a number of deaths, and at least one case in a nursing home in Schwyz.
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  #12506  
Old 09.09.2020, 22:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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I know there are some people who think the lockdown was an overreaction, but the fact is, the numbers were skyrocketing back then, and I think the Swiss government felt obligated to do something about it. Look what was happening in Italy at the time. So yeah, the lockdown sucked, but it did bring the numbers down. And at the time, it seemed like our only feasible option to bring the pandemic under some degree of control. You can't just let a pandemic run its course without taking measures to try to protect people. If the Swiss government had done that, we'd be complaining about the number of deaths right now and that the government has 'blood on its hands.'

The lockdown was of course an overreaction but needed because Switzerland, like many others, was simply too late.



It could have been different with different measures and a timely reaction, like in Taiwan, which has less cases, less deaths and less economic impact.
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  #12507  
Old 09.09.2020, 22:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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The lockdown was of course an overreaction but needed because Switzerland, like many others, was simply too late.



It could have been different with different measures and a timely reaction, like in Taiwan, which has less cases, less deaths and less economic impact.
Yeah, I remember I kept waiting and waiting for them to close the borders but they took forever to finally do it... even though the hardest hit region in the world at the time (next to Wuhan), Italy, was just right below us. I knew it was just a matter of time until it came here and then exploded. And on winter break last year (February), soo many people had gone to Italy. The Swiss government was definitely dragging its heels.
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Old 09.09.2020, 22:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Absolutely! I think the government did an outstanding job, considering the circumstances. The piss poor US response was blamed by some, in part, on the federalist system, but Switzerland is even more decentralized and managed to do a great job. Although I have heard many a Swiss grumble about the BAG, this Ausländer was pretty pleased.



Interesting about the undiagnosed cases - I think there might be something there, but I'm not sure how this affects disease severity. Anyway, for this we really need to know the seroprevalence, and what the actual protective immune response post infection is, considering the recent reports on reinfections. Maybe the lack of a huge second wave in some heavily hit, densely populated areas (NYC, London) is because of this. I think the seroprevalence was somewhere around 20% for NYC, and there was a study suggesting that some immune response to other coronaviruses gave some protection to many people, so maybe the combined effect leads to this. But honestly, I have no idea.

Incidentally, I'm participating in a long term seroprevalence study at the university where I work here in Zurich, and the first round of tests (taken in April) yielded a seroprevalence of 4%, for what it's worth. I think seroprevalence studies in Geneva around the same time were a bit higher, around 11%.
As a matter of interest, who are the subjects of your seroprevalence study? University staff and students, or a representative sampling of the general population?
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  #12509  
Old 09.09.2020, 23:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't think this is simply about selling newspapers, etc. This is a pandemic. Do you really think the media should try to downplay it for fear of being accused of fear-mongering? Should they not relay or report facts for fear of being accused of "stirring fear" in people? This is a pandemic, after all. Don't you think people should be a bit worried?
Media being what media is, presenting the saddest stories and the worst cases etc (not necessarily Swiss media, in general) I think there're still a lot of reasons to be worried. For many people who live abroad and have family back home or in other countries this situation is nerve-wracking. I'm tying to avoid most news sites and tv channels lately because I know I can't do anything - you can't save your country or the world so I focus on my family and try to take care of us as much as we can. Those who say they're not worried are either willfuly ignorant or just lying.
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  #12510  
Old 10.09.2020, 06:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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As a matter of interest, who are the subjects of your seroprevalence study? University staff and students, or a representative sampling of the general population?
It's all university staff and students ages 18-65, with some restrictions based on medical conditions. Actually, they publish the details of the study framework online.

So it's a representation of the university population, and not the general population.

By the way, the 4% number came from an email they sent to the study participants, so I guess it hasn't been formally peer-reviewed.
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  #12511  
Old 10.09.2020, 08:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well, this is what you had written (and what my statement was in response to):

"Articles like this only stir up fear. You hardly ever read "bloke catches Covid, has mild symptoms and is back to work within 10 days", which the vast majority who catch it are. It all comes back to selling papers, stirring fear and peoples inherent inability to be able to judge risk."

So I naturally interpreted that as you implying that the virus isn't as big of a deal as the media has made it out to be since (according to you), the majority of people are back to work 10 days after they catch it. So my point was that even if that's true, I don't want to be responsible for passing that virus on to anyone else who might not be so fortunate. And I can't understand why scientists and doctors, etc. would be "fear mongering?" But apparently some people consider facts -- or the relaying of facts -- as stirring fear in people.

I don't think this is simply about selling newspapers, etc. This is a pandemic. Do you really think the media should try to downplay it for fear of being accused of fear-mongering? Should they not relay or report facts for fear of being accused of "stirring fear" in people? This is a pandemic, after all. Don't you think people should be a bit worried?

I know there are some people who think the lockdown was an overreaction, but the fact is, the numbers were skyrocketing back then, and I think the Swiss government felt obligated to do something about it. Look what was happening in Italy at the time. So yeah, the lockdown sucked, but it did bring the numbers down. And at the time, it seemed like our only feasible option to bring the pandemic under some degree of control. You can't just let a pandemic run its course without taking measures to try to protect people. If the Swiss government had done that, we'd be complaining about the number of deaths right now and that the government has 'blood on its hands.'
At present only 25 in 100,000 people are catching the virus. If you are under 65 you are more likely to die in a road traffic accident than from Covid. I think it is simply irrational for the vast majority of people to fear the virus and that it should be reported truthfully as to the risk it poses.
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  #12512  
Old 10.09.2020, 08:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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At present only 25 in 100,000 people are catching the virus. If you are under 65 you are more likely to die in a road traffic accident than from Covid. I think it is simply irrational for the vast majority of people to fear the virus and that it should be reported truthfully as to the risk it poses.
Are those stats for Switzerland, and where did you get the stats from? You do realize that a lot of people have the virus but never become tested for it and never become part of the stats, right?

Listen, if you want to try to downplay the virus or feel that it's not a threat, that's fine. But for myself and my family, it's something we don't want. We also don't want to still be dealing with this damn pandemic a year from now, so we're willing to do what we feel might be necessary to try to help push it into the past, such as simply wearing a mask in the grocery store, without throwing a tantrum about it.
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  #12513  
Old 10.09.2020, 09:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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At present only 25 in 100,000 people are catching the virus. If you are under 65 you are more likely to die in a road traffic accident than from Covid. I think it is simply irrational for the vast majority of people to fear the virus and that it should be reported truthfully as to the risk it poses.



"25 in 100,000" people are catching the virus" is with the restrictions. The difference between traffic accident and infectious diseases is that the latter follows an exponential function if not controlled.
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Old 10.09.2020, 10:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's all university staff and students ages 18-65, with some restrictions based on medical conditions. Actually, they publish the details of the study framework online.

So it's a representation of the university population, and not the general population.

By the way, the 4% number came from an email they sent to the study participants, so I guess it hasn't been formally peer-reviewed.
I think I mentioned earlier that I am participating in a Zürich University UZH COVID-19 study. I finally got my blood test results last week which shows I did not have the virus.

They do show I have 0.4 of the IgA anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies and zero of the IgG; where the IgA came from they do not postulate.
They also did not quote the measurement term used, 0.4 of what?
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Old 10.09.2020, 10:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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At present only 25 in 100,000 people are catching the virus. If you are under 65 you are more likely to die in a road traffic accident than from Covid. I think it is simply irrational for the vast majority of people to fear the virus and that it should be reported truthfully as to the risk it poses.
The lockdowns really saved us.
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Old 10.09.2020, 10:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think I mentioned earlier that I am participating in a Zürich University UZH COVID-19 study. I finally got my blood test results last week which shows I did not have the virus.

They do show I have 0.4 of the IgA anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies and zero of the IgG; where the IgA came from they do not postulate.
They also did not quote the measurement term used, 0.4 of what?
It's an index of some sort, I scored 28, 1 or above is considered positive.
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Old 10.09.2020, 11:10
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Re: Coronavirus

Ironically, this is the first thing I thought when Russia announced a working and extensively tested vaccine.


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Old 10.09.2020, 11:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yeah, I remember I kept waiting and waiting for them to close the borders but they took forever to finally do it...

...The Swiss government was definitely dragging its heels.
In each case, they waited until the neighbouring countries had closed their borders with Switzerland before announcing that they were closing their side of the border.

Heard yesterday about a 45yr old friend who's being treated for long covid. She's a case worker in a young offenders institute, became ill with the virus in the 2nd week of March, managed to get a test which was positive and wasn't hospitalised. She's a normally a very active, sporty, vibrant, lively person, but is suffering with extreme exhaustion. Luckily, her employer is letting her work short hours from home, but she's even become wary of driving because she feels so wiped out 6 months after initially being ill. I've known her for over 20yrs and she's possibly the only person I know who could be on the dance floor at 2am then climb a mountain later the same day, so it's stunning to hear how she is now.
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Old 10.09.2020, 11:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Are those stats for Switzerland, and where did you get the stats from? You do realize that a lot of people have the virus but never become tested for it and never become part of the stats, right?

Listen, if you want to try to downplay the virus or feel that it's not a threat, that's fine. But for myself and my family, it's something we don't want. We also don't want to still be dealing with this damn pandemic a year from now, so we're willing to do what we feel might be necessary to try to help push it into the past, such as simply wearing a mask in the grocery store, without throwing a tantrum about it.
Look, I'm not trying to downplay anything. Those are the statistics (for Switzerland), look them up if you don't believe me! The risk to under-65s is the same as it always has been since the start of the pandemic. If those numbers make you feel threatened then that's your business. I could just as well turn it back on you and say that you're over-playing the virus.
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Old 10.09.2020, 11:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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The lockdowns really saved us.
It "saved" us so much that it will not happen again!
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