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Old 15.09.2020, 17:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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No grand peer review studies between January and today.
Because masks have been in common usage in many workplaces for decades, hence, no need to have "grand peer review studies" within your imposed narrow timescale.

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We know the virus isn't as bad as first feared, we know the risk to the under-65s is minimal, we know that lockdowns have caused devastating harm.
From BAG:

People over the age of 65

Pregnant women

Adults with the following underlying medical conditions:

High blood pressure
Cardiovascular disease
Diabetes
Chronic respiratory diseases
Cancer
Conditions and therapies that weaken the immune system
Obesity class III (morbid, BMI greater than or equal to 40 kg/m2)

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...-menschen.html
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  #12662  
Old 15.09.2020, 18:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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Masks are an evidence based decision? That's the point, they're not. As I've said numerous times, there's very little evidence that supports the efficacy of masks. No grand peer review studies between January and today. If you've seen the evidence that wearing loose fitting, reusable cloth masks in a public environment reduces the transmission of Covid then please do send it to me.

By now you'd think by now that we'd start to see the benefit of masks. Countries like France, Spain, Germany, UK, even in Switzerland you'd think there would be at least SOME correlation between compulsory masks being introduced and the number of cases. As it is, the only correlation there appears to be is the number of cases INCREASING since masks became mandatory!

More and more scientists and doctors are now coming out along the sceptical side of the argument. We know the virus isn't as bad as first feared, we know the risk to the under-65s is minimal, we know that lockdowns have caused devastating harm. In spite of all this there's still people like you repeating "follow the science" and "wear a damn mask".
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...142-9/fulltext

"Face mask use could result in a large reduction in risk of infection (n=2647; aOR 0·15, 95% CI 0·07 to 0·34, RD −14·3%, −15·9 to −10·7; low certainty), with stronger associations with N95 or similar respirators compared with disposable surgical masks or similar (eg, reusable 12–16-layer cotton masks; pinteraction=0·090; posterior probability >95%, low certainty)."

"Robust randomised trials are needed to better inform the evidence for these interventions, but this systematic appraisal of currently best available evidence might inform interim guidance."
Emphasis mine.

There you go, Lancet study, cited over 300 times.

Another study from 2009 on people in the same household.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/15/2/pdfs/08-1167.pdf
Cited over 300 times.

"We estimated that, irrespective of the assumed value
for the incubation period (1 or 2 days), the relative reduction in the daily risk of acquiring a respiratory infection
associated with adherent mask use (P2 or surgical) was in
the range of 60%–80%
. "

I know it feels convenient to say that it's never been studied, but that isn't true.

Listen, I don't like masks either, I have to wear one for 10 hours a day with a 30 min break at lunch to eat alone. It sucks, but my friends and family have lost loved ones, and not all of them were old and frail. I have missed three funerals due to border closures in the last 3 months. It all sucks.

But if there was a chance, even a small chance, that wearing masks could have saved those or the others lives even if there was no evidence for it, would it not be worth it? Is it not worth it for just a little discomfort? If there was a chance that masks could keep numbers just low enough for people to visit their loved ones in hospitals, or for funerals ... would it not be worth it?

For me, it's worth the discomfort.

Last edited by kngavl; 15.09.2020 at 18:13.
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  #12663  
Old 15.09.2020, 18:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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Obesity class III (morbid, BMI greater than or equal to 40 kg/m2)
If you are that fat, you will be lucky to reach 65
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  #12664  
Old 15.09.2020, 18:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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Because masks have been in common usage in many workplaces for decades, hence, no need to have "grand peer review studies" within your imposed narrow timescale.
I wear a good mask well because I'm aware of this evidence, so I'm confident I'm protecting myself and more importantly others to the best of my ability.

Whether a population partly not wearing masks, partly wearing poor quality cloth masks, partly wearing masks upside down and inside out, partly wearing not covering the nose, partly reusing the mask far too long is significantly protected, who knows.
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Old 15.09.2020, 18:47
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Re: Coronavirus

A personal anecdote here, as when I first travelled back to outside Philadelphia Pa in mid June, I was not the happiest to wear a mask given that numbers were down at that time in Zurich and masks were not mandatory here then.

But a talk with my sister altered my opinion. She had a conversation with a friend who is an ER nurse at a very busy hospital near Hartford Ct (an area which was badly hit by COVID). Anyway, this friend told my sister that she had no problem wearing a mask as one would be surprised at how many people in the US have ZERO clue that they have a comorbidity!

She explained that some simply have limited access to adequate health care coverage to realize they have a co-morbidity (such as diabetes, heart condition etc...). She also said that she was shocked at how many in the US are in denial about their weight/obesity. In short, by wearing a mask, you might help others who are at risk and ignorant of the risk in which they place themselves.

Food for thought as I never really considered this perspective. I was aware of the elderly and those struggling with co-morbidities, but what about those who are unaware?

Makes me really appreciate the excellent health care system we have here in Switzerland - and the dire need for the health care system to be overhauled in the US.
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  #12666  
Old 15.09.2020, 18:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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A personal anecdote here, as when I first travelled back to outside Philadelphia Pa in mid June, I was not the happiest to wear a mask given that numbers were down at that time in Zurich and masks were not mandatory here then.

But a talk with my sister altered my opinion. She had a conversation with a friend who is an ER nurse at a very busy hospital near Hartford Ct (an area which was badly hit by COVID). Anyway, this friend told my sister that she had no problem wearing a mask as one would be surprised at how many people in the US have ZERO clue that they have a comorbidity!

She explained that some simply have limited access to adequate health care coverage to realize they have a co-morbidity (such as diabetes, heart condition etc...). She also said that she was shocked at how many in the US are in denial about their weight/obesity. In short, by wearing a mask, you might help others who are at risk and ignorant of the risk in which they place themselves.

Food for thought as I never really considered this perspective. I was aware of the elderly and those struggling with co-morbidities, but what about those who are unaware?

Makes me really appreciate the excellent health care system we have here in Switzerland - and the dire need for the health care system to be overhauled in the US.
The whole point of masks, social distancing and self-isolation etc is to try to avoid, or at least significantly reduce, the risk of infecting anyone, whether aware or unaware. The same principle applies throughout.
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  #12667  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Whether a population partly not wearing masks, partly wearing poor quality cloth masks, partly wearing masks upside down and inside out, partly wearing not covering the nose, partly reusing the mask far too long is significantly protected, who knows.
This is the point, there is no hard experimental evidence that wearing a loose piece of cloth that is constantly touched, removed, reused, placed on tables, dropped etc. has any significant benefit. I believe it could even exacerbate transmission as people always touch the front of the masks, which if they have the virus, will ensure transfer to their hands and who knows where else.

Masks are supposed to have a direct impact on the number of cases, until now I've yet to see anywhere where they've made a dent. If this trend continues then some serious questions need to be asked.
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  #12668  
Old 15.09.2020, 19:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is the point, there is no hard experimental evidence that wearing a loose piece of cloth that is constantly touched, removed, reused, placed on tables, dropped etc. has any significant benefit. I believe it could even exacerbate transmission as people always touch the front of the masks, which if they have the virus, will ensure transfer to their hands and who knows where else.

Masks are supposed to have a direct impact on the number of cases, until now I've yet to see anywhere where they've made a dent. If this trend continues then some serious questions need to be asked.
What do you think happens to saliva and mucus droplets ejected by a sneeze or cough when they are done behind a mask vs what happens to them when done with no mask?

Hint: https://www.livescience.com/face-mas...-covid-19.html

If you don't understand basic physics then some serious questions need to be asked. Questions about your intelligence... though these are admittedly largely rhetorical at this point.
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Old 15.09.2020, 19:26
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Re: Coronavirus

Very peculiar situation in Croatia after the introduction of mandatory masks.

Ever since masks were made obligatory on public transport, shops and now schools, Croatia has 60% MORE deaths per 1M compared to Sweden and that number goes up every day!

Since the introduction of masks in Croatia they have had an increase of 326% of corona deaths!



(First line is mandatory masks on public transport, second line is shops and third line is schools)

This is a pure example of what some people are saying about masks, they are counterproductive when not used properly and that's how most of the people use them!
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Old 15.09.2020, 20:15
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Re: Coronavirus

Let's be honest. We can put whatever order we want on masks, but the disease is mostly spread by young people taking the piss atm drinking and shouting down each others necks. Anyone who is vaguely following the rules is relatively unlikely to get it.

What the kiddies don't realize is that - sure they are almost 100% safe from the disease, but they are 1st in line to be fired when the economy goes sour.

It's people like myself who are young enough to still be highly unlikely to suffer but have gotten into a stable career who should be taking the Michael on a purely selfish basis - but by our 30s we've actually developed a sense of empathy and societal responsibility unlike the kids in their late teens, early 20s.
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  #12671  
Old 15.09.2020, 20:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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A personal anecdote here, as when I first travelled back to outside Philadelphia Pa in mid June, I was not the happiest to wear a mask given that numbers were down at that time in Zurich and masks were not mandatory here then.

But a talk with my sister altered my opinion. She had a conversation with a friend who is an ER nurse at a very busy hospital near Hartford Ct (an area which was badly hit by COVID). Anyway, this friend told my sister that she had no problem wearing a mask as one would be surprised at how many people in the US have ZERO clue that they have a comorbidity!

She explained that some simply have limited access to adequate health care coverage to realize they have a co-morbidity (such as diabetes, heart condition etc...). She also said that she was shocked at how many in the US are in denial about their weight/obesity. In short, by wearing a mask, you might help others who are at risk and ignorant of the risk in which they place themselves.

Food for thought as I never really considered this perspective. I was aware of the elderly and those struggling with co-morbidities, but what about those who are unaware?

Makes me really appreciate the excellent health care system we have here in Switzerland - and the dire need for the health care system to be overhauled in the US.
Indeed, the Silent Killer is also known as high blood pressure There's no discomfort or pain until it's too late.

People of superb health who never get sick are at higher risk of undetected high blood pressure problems or diabetes precisely because they never stop by a hospital. People with some other health problems or having accidents get tested and diagnosed for these conditions.
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Old 15.09.2020, 20:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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Worldometers shows the following:
New Covid cases in Sweden since 1st June - 48,044
New Covid cases in Switzerland since 1st June - 16,575

New Covid deaths in Sweden since 1st June - 1,174
New Covid deaths in Switzerland since 1st June - 105
why not compare from June, 14, f.ex?
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Old 15.09.2020, 21:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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Very peculiar situation in Croatia after the introduction of mandatory masks.

Ever since masks were made obligatory on public transport, shops and now schools, Croatia has 60% MORE deaths per 1M compared to Sweden and that number goes up every day!

Since the introduction of masks in Croatia they have had an increase of 326% of corona deaths!

(First line is mandatory masks on public transport, second line is shops and third line is schools)

This is a pure example of what some people are saying about masks, they are counterproductive when not used properly and that's how most of the people use them!
But correlation is not causation. Masks were made mandatory in Croatia on July 13th (as stated in the article linked to below), and the numbers were already rising and on an upward trend prior to that.

THE COVID-19 CRISIS IN CROATIA
https://www.oecd.org/south-east-euro...in-Croatia.pdf

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So there is really no way of knowing what the #'s there might be if masks had not been made mandatory, considering the fact that the #'s were already on an upward trend. Also, you have to consider any other potential contributing factors (e.g. borders were also opened around that same time).

Furthermore, the numbers began to rise here in Switzerland around the end of June even though masks were not made mandatory in the canton of Vaud until July 6th and in Geneva until July 28th. So if you really wanted to try to prove that mandatory masks are (quote) "counterproductive" and directly contribute to a dramatic rise in new cases, you would have to examine the data across many different countries and compare that and also take other factors into account (easing of restrictions, kids going back to school, border openings, etc.) that could play a contributing role as well.
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Old 15.09.2020, 21:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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Ever since masks were made obligatory on public transport, shops and now schools, Croatia has 60% MORE deaths per 1M compared to Sweden and that number goes up every day!

Since the introduction of masks in Croatia they have had an increase of 326% of corona deaths!


Fantastic chart, Sweden kicks ass.
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Old 15.09.2020, 21:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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What do you think happens to saliva and mucus droplets ejected by a sneeze or cough when they are done behind a mask vs what happens to them when done with no mask?

Hint: https://www.livescience.com/face-mas...-covid-19.html

If you don't understand basic physics then some serious questions need to be asked. Questions about your intelligence... though these are admittedly largely rhetorical at this point.
It's so cute when you get all priggish like that!

Seeing as the size of the Covid-19 is about 120 nm, can you point out to me where they are in the photographs? I couldn't quite see them!
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  #12676  
Old 15.09.2020, 21:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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So there is really no way of knowing what the #'s there might be if masks had not been made mandatory, considering the fact that the #'s were already on an upward trend. Also, you have to consider any other potential contributing factors (e.g. borders were also opened around that same time).

Furthermore, the numbers began to rise here in Switzerland around the end of June even though masks were not made mandatory in the canton of Vaud until July 6th and in Geneva until July 28th. So if you really wanted to try to prove that mandatory masks are (quote) "counterproductive" and directly contribute to a dramatic rise in new cases, you would have to examine the data across many different countries and compare that and also take other factors into account (easing of restrictions, kids going back to school, border openings, etc.) that could play a contributing role as well.
So there's little evidence that masks work and even if they do work we can't see that they work.

Regardless of whether they work or not, the severity of Covid simply does not justify enforcing everyone in society, including children, to walk around with their face covered.
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Old 15.09.2020, 21:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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So there's little evidence that masks work and even if they do work we can't see that they work.

Regardless of whether they work or not, the severity of Covid simply does not justify enforcing everyone in society, including children, to walk around with their face covered.
A large chunk of the world's population walk around every day with a face covering, it is not a big deal, and if it helps then why not?
If you are worried about how effective masks are then a few minutes in google will soothe your concerns.
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Old 15.09.2020, 21:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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Fantastic chart, Sweden kicks ass.
Wow, did V really post a graph for Sweden instead of Croatia?

This surely must be the universe's way of telling me to stop engaging.

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So there's little evidence that masks work and even if they do work we can't see that they work.

Regardless of whether they work or not, the severity of Covid simply does not justify enforcing everyone in society, including children, to walk around with their face covered.
There have been plenty of studies showing the effectiveness of face masks in helping to prevent the spread of COVID. But you choose to ignore them because they contradict your cognitive bias.

You've already made it very, very clear that no matter what data you are given showing otherwise, you're locked into your anti-mask stance and nothing is going to change your mind. Not facts. Not science. Nothing. And I hate to break this to you, but bitching about masks isn't going to change the requirements, so deal with it.

Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10...es&stream=top&

"This study provides evidence from a natural experiment on the effects of state government mandates for face mask use in public issued by fifteen states plus Washington, D.C., between April 8 and May 15, 2020. The research design is an event study examining changes in the daily county-level COVID-19 growth rates between March 31 and May 22, 2020. Mandating face mask use in public is associated with a decline in the daily COVID-19 growth rate by 0.9, 1.1, 1.4, 1.7, and 2.0 percentage points in 1–5, 6–10, 11–15, 16–20, and 21 or more days after state face mask orders were signed, respectively. Estimates suggest that as a result of the implementation of these mandates, more than 200,000 COVID-19 cases were averted by May 22, 2020. The findings suggest that requiring face mask use in public could help in mitigating the spread of COVID-19."


And here is a study regarding the effectiveness of masks in Germany:
https://voxeu.org/article/unmasked-e...pread-covid-19

"Based on our findings, we calculate a rule-of-thumb measure for the relative decrease in the daily growth rate of COVID-19 cases of about 40% (Table 1). Consider a region in which the number of COVID-19 cases increased by 10% from one day to another. This increase would have been only 6% if there had been an obligation to wear face masks. With a 10% daily increase in COVID-19, cases double within 7 days; in contrast, a 6% daily increase means cases double only within 12 days."

In summary, the introduction of mandatory face masks has slowed down the spread of COVID-19 in Germany. This result agrees with the findings of epidemiologists and virologists who explain that face coverings limit airflow when speaking, thereby reducing the transmission of infectious particles."


Maybe you should get off this forum and stop wasting people's time.
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Old 15.09.2020, 21:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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Wow, did V really post a graph for Sweden instead of Croatia?


3
I think, although I can’t be sure because it’s not in English, that the red line is for Sweden and the blue line is for Croatia.


There are other factors involved other than just the introduction of masks though and it would be stupid to think otherwise.
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Old 15.09.2020, 22:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Very peculiar situation in Croatia after the introduction of mandatory masks.

Ever since masks were made obligatory on public transport, shops and now schools, Croatia has 60% MORE deaths per 1M compared to Sweden and that number goes up every day!

Since the introduction of masks in Croatia they have had an increase of 326% of corona deaths!



(First line is mandatory masks on public transport, second line is shops and third line is schools)

This is a pure example of what some people are saying about masks, they are counterproductive when not used properly and that's how most of the people use them!
Here is the worldometers graph of COVID-19 deaths in Croatia, with a 7 day moving average of between around one or two per day it does not really prove anything.
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