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  #12741  
Old 17.09.2020, 10:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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The point of masks should be now not even a discussion point. They are mandatory in public transport, in some better managed cantons they are mandatory in shops, restaurants and closed public space, so whoever is against them is really breaking the rules.
Better managed in what sense? Certainly not in terms of the number of new Covid cases
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  #12742  
Old 17.09.2020, 10:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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Better managed in what sense? Certainly not in terms of the number of new Covid cases
Uh oh, gaburko, time to break out the
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  #12743  
Old 17.09.2020, 12:12
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Re: Coronavirus

Things that need to be said by responsible adults: no, Echinaforce is not a treatment for COVID19 https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/wirb...-werbeverstoss

On the optimistic side, this is only a scam where only money is lost. At least it's not as harmful as chlorine dioxide.
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  #12744  
Old 17.09.2020, 12:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is what all is about coronavirus.

Major's office in Nashville kept information secret about LOW corona cases so they can keep businesses closed and people in fear.

Out of 20.000 cases only 80 have been linked to bars and restaurants yet the authorities kept this fact a secret so they can be seen as they are proactive in the coronavirus battle

https://fox17.com/news/local/covid-1...ing-revelation
Well if the bars and restaurants are closed then there will not be cases linked to them will there
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  #12745  
Old 17.09.2020, 12:51
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Re: Coronavirus

This is an internet forum so everybody is entitled to their opinion.
But what when these opinions could cause people to be seriously ill or die?

Twitter and Facebook are getting much better at protecting their users from false or dangerously misleading information.

EF rules state prohibited material or content include: (one example) "to promote information that you know is deceptive or phony".
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  #12746  
Old 17.09.2020, 13:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is an internet forum so everybody is entitled to their opinion.
But what when these opinions could cause people to be seriously ill or die?

Twitter and Facebook are getting much better at protecting their users from false or dangerously misleading information.

EF rules state prohibited material or content include: (one example) "to promote information that you know is deceptive or phony".
I don't think anyone has said anything that is simply provably false, or at least not often.

E.g. covid doesn't exist, its caused by 5G.

Ultimately if somebody thinks it is very serious and worth locking down for, and others think it is less serious, that can be more of a difference in risk tolerance than the facts. I'm not sure there has been a huge difference regarding facts.

Personally, I've disagreed with comments from both covid "wings" here previously, where opinions have been presented as facts. I cannot necessarily prove they are wrong but I highly suspect it. There are people who are incredibly personally worried with very little basis, and there are also people who are taking the piss with others health.

One was from you in relation to that US military ship - which you presented as absolute proof of reinfection after a very short period IIRC (apologies if my recollection is false). I don't think has been proven to my satisfaction, especially as we know the tests can give a positive with tiny amounts of virus https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle...Medical%20News after recovery. At the end of the day though, people have rights to an opinions like this and to project it, at least if it its not demonstrably false. That's part of living in a free society. You have your opinion, and express it good faith, I have mine. I've equally disagreed with a few of the comments about how well Sweden is doing and how it'll prove to be the best strategy. I could be wrong, but again I doubt it.

I can't remember anyone giving information that a reasonably person would *know* to be deceptive or phoney. That's quite a high barrier. Can you provide examples?

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 17.09.2020 at 13:42.
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  #12747  
Old 17.09.2020, 13:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is an internet forum so everybody is entitled to their opinion.
But what when these opinions could cause people to be seriously ill or die?

Twitter and Facebook are getting much better at protecting their users from false or dangerously misleading information.

EF rules state prohibited material or content include: (one example) "to promote information that you know is deceptive or phony".

Especially in this topic, it would be good not to allow any links to any kind of research or articles anymore. I don't think that anyone here on the forum has a qualified opinion about the Corona-situation and oversees the full picture (in case someone disagrees, please share CV per PM). We are all amateurs with an opinion, not more and not less.
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  #12748  
Old 17.09.2020, 13:19
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Re: Coronavirus

What if we stick to the official recommendations and mind our own business?
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  #12749  
Old 17.09.2020, 13:24
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Re: Coronavirus

Germany has added Canton Fribourg to Cantons Vaud and Genève on its (very extensive) list of international risk areas. (The link is for the situation as of yesterday; updated information (in English) is available from the link on this page.)

From the information provided by the Robert Koch Institut:

"Persons entering the Federal Republic of Germany, who have spent time in a risk area at any specific period within 14 days prior to entry, are subject to a mandatory Covid-19 test... and may be subject to quarantine under the specific quarantine ordinances issued by the competent [German] federal state (Land)."

People who have spent time in the designated risk areas are required to undergo a COVID-19 test in Germany, or to produce a report for a test undertaken in the last 48 hours prior to entry. The test report must be in German or English.

Quarantine rules for those with a positive test result, or with no test, vary from state to state.
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  #12750  
Old 17.09.2020, 13:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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Especially in this topic, it would be good not to allow any links to any kind of research or articles anymore. I don't think that anyone here on the forum has a qualified opinion about the Corona-situation and oversees the full picture (in case someone disagrees, please share CV per PM). We are all amateurs with an opinion, not more and not less.
What happened to freedom of speech? Yes limited to avoid dangerous and deliberate lies. Do you want to live somewhere where you can no longer speak your mind? I don't. This isn't China, we don't censor people's comments about government policy in countries like Switzerland.

Your post is frankly chilling. What next? We get banned from conversations with our neighbours on Covid? Would you like that to happen?
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  #12751  
Old 17.09.2020, 13:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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What if we stick to the official recommendations and mind our own business?
Have you looked at "official recommendations" in some places. They haven't got a clue and are making it up as they go along. Tbh even Switzerland doesn't have a clue and is making it up as it goes along - its just doing so well.

Honestly. I think the people on this thread could have done better than Boris and his numpties.

We aren't sheep. I'll overstep "official recommendations" if they are too lax (I prefer to wear a mask in the shop), and ill ignore them if they are pointless (once a day exercise in UK).

Do you think all criticisms and comments on government policy should be banned because one doesn't have a PhD in that area?

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 17.09.2020 at 13:44.
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  #12752  
Old 17.09.2020, 13:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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What happened to freedom of speech? Yes limited to avoid dangerous and deliberate lies. Do you want to live somewhere where you can no longer speak your mind? I don't. This isn't China, we don't censor people's comments about government policy in countries like Switzerland.

Your post is frankly chilling. What next? We get banned from conversations with our neighbours on Covid? Would you like that to happen?

I didn't write anything about freedom of speech or opinions, only about restrictions to external likes. I wrote that we are all amateurs with an opinion and should not pretend to be more than that.
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  #12753  
Old 17.09.2020, 13:48
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Re: Coronavirus

Yes, but it speaks to "gatekeeping" and policing content. I no more want EF to be the arbiter of what I can see or read than Twitter/FB/Google.

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I didn't write anything about freedom of speech or opinions, only about restrictions to external likes. I wrote that we are all amateurs with an opinion and should not pretend to be more than that.
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  #12754  
Old 17.09.2020, 14:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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The fact remains that the majority of cantons in Switzerland DON'T have a mandatory mask requirement (apart from on public transport).
But those that do cover roughly 50% of the population.All those fiddly little conservative ones don't add up to a great many people.

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I'm not pessimistic, just realistic. We already have flu vaccines that need to be taken every winter, and not by the entire population. In spite of these vaccines there's still thousands of deaths from flu each year.

I don't see any chance of entire populations being able to take the vaccine once or twice a year for several years yet, which is why we will have to learn to live with it.
The difference is once there is a decent vaccine we will all have the choice, as with flu. And in contrast to the situation now. Until that choice exists we have to take other actions to protect each other.
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  #12755  
Old 17.09.2020, 14:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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The difference is once there is a decent vaccine we will all have the choice, as with flu.
I'm hoping that evidence of vaccinations (like an immunization passport) will eventually be mandatory to access or use certain services and areas like airports and schools etc.
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  #12756  
Old 17.09.2020, 14:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't think anyone has said anything that is simply provably false, or at least not often.

E.g. covid doesn't exist, its caused by 5G.

Ultimately if somebody thinks it is very serious and worth locking down for, and others think it is less serious, that can be more of a difference in risk tolerance than the facts. I'm not sure there has been a huge difference regarding facts.

Personally, I've disagreed with comments from both covid "wings" here previously, where opinions have been presented as facts. I cannot necessarily prove they are wrong but I highly suspect it. There are people who are incredibly personally worried with very little basis, and there are also people who are taking the piss with others health.

One was from you in relation to that US military ship - which you presented as absolute proof of reinfection after a very short period IIRC (apologies if my recollection is false). I don't think has been proven to my satisfaction, especially as we know the tests can give a positive with tiny amounts of virus https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle...Medical%20News after recovery. At the end of the day though, people have rights to an opinions like this and to project it, at least if it its not demonstrably false. That's part of living in a free society. You have your opinion, and express it good faith, I have mine. I've equally disagreed with a few of the comments about how well Sweden is doing and how it'll prove to be the best strategy. I could be wrong, but again I doubt it.

I can't remember anyone giving information that a reasonably person would *know* to be deceptive or phoney. That's quite a high barrier. Can you provide examples?
Quote:
The U.S. Navy says 13 sailors from the USS Theodore Roosevelt who had apparently recovered from the coronavirus and had received negative test results have now tested positive for a second time.

In a statement released earlier on Saturday [May 16] when five sailors were found to have retested positive, the Navy said the sailors had "met rigorous recovery criteria, exceeding CDC guidelines," including testing negative for the virus at least twice, but have now retested positive.
Source

Quote:
Four cases of coronavirus reinfection have been documented in the Spanish region of Catalonia, including one with serious symptoms, said local health officials on Monday.
Source
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Old 17.09.2020, 14:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm hoping that evidence of vaccinations (like an immunization passport) will eventually be mandatory to access or use certain services and areas like airports and schools etc.
Awful idea.
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  #12758  
Old 17.09.2020, 14:41
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Re: Coronavirus

Weekly situation report by BAG. Looks indeed like hospitalizations and deaths are going up, albeit slowly.

https://www.bag.admin.ch/dam/bag/de/...liche_Lage.pdf
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Old 17.09.2020, 14:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not doubting that they tested negative and then tested positive.

I'm saying that when there's a very large number of people infected (1,156 on the ship according to wiki), knowing that you can get positive tests from dormant virus long after the infection (see link I previously posted), knowing that there's been extensive testing of each individual, you would expect there to be a significant degree of false positivity making it look like people had been reinfected when they in fact had not. That's not to say that none were reinfected. But its just not proof, not for me.

For proof I'd need evidence either i) that significant symptoms or a high viral dose are present the second infection, or preferably ii) the second infection has been shown to be genetically dissimilar to the first.

I don't doubt that after a few months some reinfection will occur, especially where the initial infection is mild. It'd be interesting to see if anybody has been hospitalized multiple times. That's where it starts getting important.

My scientific training always taught me to be skeptical about everything, and only call something a fact if it is pretty much indisputable.

AFAIK we have not yet had a single death, worldwide from a reinfection demonstrated. This makes me suspect that a decent degree of protection is likely to average in the years. Which is good - because this indicates that the vaccine is likely to be effective also for a decent period of time. Maybe not 100%, but a high figure.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 17.09.2020 at 15:02.
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  #12760  
Old 17.09.2020, 14:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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● It is not clear to what degree people who have been infected by SARS-CoV-2 are immune to future
SARS-CoV-2 infections, and for how long immunity would last. Mild infections in particular might
not lead to substantial protective immunity.
● Widespread infection in the population will lead to high numbers of severe disease outcomes and
deaths. When case numbers go up, it is increasingly difficult to prevent the spread of infection to
vulnerable groups.
Just like the Sweden case has showed. The vulnerable groups got hit hard in Sweden, where the elders had to take the brunt of the force and many died, but hey, you MIGHT have some immunity in some of the people that has had Covid-19.
I definitely prefer the Swiss method of dealing with this crisis.
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