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  #12781  
Old 18.09.2020, 00:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm hoping that evidence of vaccinations (like an immunization passport) will eventually be mandatory to access or use certain services and areas like airports and schools etc.
we all now learned that immunity doesnt lasts long, right?
well, i can see that owning an drug-maker company soon will give more income than selling heroin or weapons
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  #12782  
Old 18.09.2020, 00:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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Not at all, however, I do think that freedom of speech doesn't mean saying or writing whatever crosses one's mind. As far as I'm concerned I try to gather as much info from reliable sources as I can, use my own filter and write those things which are not hurting the majority of/other people. Freedom of speech (or thought, asa matter of fact), in my opinion, does not equal manipulation or being manipulated.
Sorry greenmount but how are you so sure/certain that you are not being manipulated? I also research and read prodigiously regarding Corona/Covid. I have members in my family who have lost jobs; others who had anxiety before this COVID situation and this has exacerbated their issues. Some who never suffered from anxiety before and now they struggle with depression.

Where does one draw the line exactly? Your fears versus others? We have not even hit the tip of the iceberg yet as to what this "pandemic" will do for mental health notwithstanding loss of jobs/business failures/ health issues (regarding those too fearful to get treatment). I am sorry but I think there is a much wider band of those afflicted by this semi-lockdown/quarantine than people are willing to discuss.

In short, we are not just dealing with death statistics from COVID; but long term issues regarding mental health, unemployment, and physical health (those who are too fearful to seek treatment).

I think in Switzerland, it is easy to dismiss this as the government has so much money at their disposal that they can support businesses at their will and the healthcare system here is very good. Not the case in the US nor in many other countries ...
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  #12783  
Old 18.09.2020, 01:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump
The Democrats are just ANGRY that the vaccine and delivery are so far ahead of schedule.
They hate what they are seeing.
Saving lives should make them happy, not sad!
10:44 PM · Sep 17, 2020
The best hope for a US vaccine is Moderna.

Moderna should have enough data from its late-stage trial to know whether its coronavirus vaccine works in November, CEO Stephane Bancel said today.

"If the infection rate in the country were to slow down in the next weeks, it could potentially be pushed out in a worst-case scenario in December," Bancel told CNBC.
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Old 18.09.2020, 08:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sorry greenmount but how are you so sure/certain that you are not being manipulated? I also research and read prodigiously regarding Corona/Covid. I have members in my family who have lost jobs; others who had anxiety before this COVID situation and this has exacerbated their issues. Some who never suffered from anxiety before and now they struggle with depression.

Where does one draw the line exactly? Your fears versus others? We have not even hit the tip of the iceberg yet as to what this "pandemic" will do for mental health notwithstanding loss of jobs/business failures/ health issues (regarding those too fearful to get treatment). I am sorry but I think there is a much wider band of those afflicted by this semi-lockdown/quarantine than people are willing to discuss.

In short, we are not just dealing with death statistics from COVID; but long term issues regarding mental health, unemployment, and physical health (those who are too fearful to seek treatment).

I think in Switzerland, it is easy to dismiss this as the government has so much money at their disposal that they can support businesses at their will and the healthcare system here is very good. Not the case in the US nor in many other countries ...
Nobody is denying the the negative effects of "lockdowns".
It is the reason why countries are trying to find a middle line to suit their circumstances.
The main contentious points at the moment are the countries putting in place travel restrictions that are not consistent, difficult to implement and seem to be based as much on politics as public health issues - then compliance falls.
Denying the positive effects of masks, hand-hygiene, or social distancing is absurd, willfully dumb? The USA has a dumb narcissist as president with a lot of blood directly on his hands.
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  #12785  
Old 18.09.2020, 09:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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Nobody is denying the the negative effects of "lockdowns".
Covid pushes New Zealand into worst recession in years
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  #12786  
Old 18.09.2020, 09:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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The best hope for a US vaccine is Moderna.

Moderna should have enough data from its late-stage trial to know whether its coronavirus vaccine works in November, CEO Stephane Bancel said today.

"If the infection rate in the country were to slow down in the next weeks, it could potentially be pushed out in a worst-case scenario in December," Bancel told CNBC.
The point that Redfield was making is that the scale-up required to make vaccinations available to all are going to take a year - the quality control and validation required for each batch makes it a slow process.
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  #12787  
Old 18.09.2020, 09:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sorry greenmount but how are you so sure/certain that you are not being manipulated? I also research and read prodigiously regarding Corona/Covid. I have members in my family who have lost jobs; others who had anxiety before this COVID situation and this has exacerbated their issues. Some who never suffered from anxiety before and now they struggle with depression.
No need to apologise terrifisch, I will try to answer to you very briefly here on some points. I am certain I am not being manipulated by scientists because I studied biology and I understand microorganisms, viruses. I also understand diseases and pathological mechanisms or why we're following hygiene rules for instance. Like most people who were educated in a modern education system, I hope. I don't think we're manipulated in regards with how this virus is spreading or what can we all do to help contain it. Not eradicate it, contain it.
I have never disagreed with the findings of various studies that one of the effects of this pandemic is an increased incidence of anxiety or other mental illnesses. Or that some of the people with chronic diseases are avoiding treatments and medical assessments in this period. I don't think anyone here denies that all of these are actually happening. These are some of the pandemic's worst effects, along with the economic ones that you or others have already mentioned - unemployment, poverty, collapse of the health systems.

If you're trying to imply that there have been mistakes in the way some governments have communicated with the public during pandemic, creating more panic than necessary, then yes, I can agree with that. But all the measures that have been taken in the beginning were necessary. The recommendations to wear masks and maintain physical distance are still necessary. You have seen what happened in Italy for instance. If it wasn't for the lockdown they could have never contained the rapid spreading of the virus. In other places these measure were taken too soon or were too strict thus people got tired after a few months and couldn't understand why they applied so arbitrarily. Governments made all sorts of mistakes, but also with the idea of saving the economy. I think in some places people got sick of the pandemic already when it didn't even really start it.

I do believe we won't be able to live exactly as before for quite a couple of years from now on. I mean what's left from this year and part of the next year only if we're lucky. The more we struggle to accept some facts, the longer the pandemic will be.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.09.2020 at 09:59.
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  #12788  
Old 18.09.2020, 09:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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https://www.rts.ch/info/regions/vaud...arantaine.html

Selon laRTS, le Canton de Vaud n’impose plus l’isolement si une personne a été en contact avec un malade, pour autant qu’elle ne vive pas sous le même toit que la personne contaminée. Un assouplissement des règles de quarantaine qui a de quoi surprendre de la part du Canton de Vaud, le plus atteint par le coronavirus en Suisse en l’état actuel.

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According to the RTS, the Canton of Vaud no longer imposes isolation if a person has been in contact with a sick person, as long as they do not live under the same roof as the infected person. A relaxation of the quarantine rules which is surprisingly on the part of the Canton of Vaud, the most affected by the coronavirus in Switzerland as it stands.
It didn't take long but they admitted that contact tracing has failed in canton Vaud ... but this is exactly the issue with the federal government passing the buck to the cantons. It's the same issue that we had back in March.

Instead of having a centralized operation consisting of contact tracers, we have every single canton doing it's own, not communicating with other cantons and now being overrun when we still have sufficient tracers in other parts of the country.
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  #12789  
Old 18.09.2020, 11:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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It didn't take long but they admitted that contact tracing has failed in canton Vaud ... but this is exactly the issue with the federal government passing the buck to the cantons. It's the same issue that we had back in March.

Instead of having a centralized operation consisting of contact tracers, we have every single canton doing it's own, not communicating with other cantons and now being overrun when we still have sufficient tracers in other parts of the country.
It seemed to ignore the fact that these days there is a lot of inter canton travel which is why a centralised contact tracing would be better.

Meanwhile in the US the falls in new cases and deaths seem to levelling off or even rising, the US trend to stop or reduce precautions will have a price to pay.
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  #12790  
Old 18.09.2020, 12:37
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Re: Coronavirus

Just spoke to my sister in Auckland. She reports how many are starting to get to know their own country - even the ski resorts report 70% normal activity.
The economic downturn seems to be a price that is generally accepted.
Crowds watching rugby, fishing, eating out, hiking, tennis, golf much as normal
Exports affected but commercial movements are not restricted
Too many returning Kiwis stretching the quarantine facilities
I am trying to book a place
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  #12791  
Old 18.09.2020, 13:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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It didn't take long but they admitted that contact tracing has failed in canton Vaud ... but this is exactly the issue with the federal government passing the buck to the cantons.
As they are legally obliged to do.

Same as in the US.

Tom
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Old 18.09.2020, 17:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Awful idea.
Not so sure about that.

On measles:
The Steinerschule (Rudolf-Steiner-Schule, Waldorfschule in Germany and Austria) are recurring hotspots, apparently a vatly overproportionate rate of the parents are anti-vaxxers. The measles outbreak in 2008, which resulted in a few thousand infections in the DACH countries and almost got the Euro '08 cancelled (European football championship), was caused and spread by them. And that's only the most grave outbreak.

This shows that the lack of mandatoriness has significant drawbacks. So far the costs of freedom to chose have been limited, albeit deadly in a few and luckily rare cases, but there may come a point where the potential cost outweighs the positives. At any rate the absoluteness in your post seems misplaced.
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Old 18.09.2020, 17:08
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Re: Coronavirus

So the friend of a friend who had Corona was quarantined for 10 days. He spent a lot of time with his extended family. They even had a get together party etc, yet none of them caught Corona, all negative including old family members

This Corona seems bit too selective I really don't know what to believe any more.
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  #12794  
Old 18.09.2020, 17:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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So the friend of a friend who had Corona was quarantined for 10 days. He spent a lot of time with his extended family. They even had a get together party etc, yet none of them caught Corona, all negative including old family members

This Corona seems bit too selective I really don't know what to believe any more.

Welcome to the our world full of randomness that can be more or less understood on terms of probabilities. If some event occurs 60% of times and you witness one of the belonging to the 40% where nothing happens, you cannot conclude it never happens. Until you assess lots of cases a conclusion can be made, but the conclusion is constrained. From the events you calculate an average, and that average allows to predict average outcomes, never individual events, ever.
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Old 18.09.2020, 17:40
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Re: Coronavirus

I heard some epidemiologist (forgot who, might have been Osterholm) estimate that 20% of the infected cause 80% of onward transmission.
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  #12796  
Old 18.09.2020, 17:48
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Re: Coronavirus

I know this thread has degenerated into a giant argument among a few of you, but I have an actual question. What is the general attitude like in CH now? Here in France, it is pretty sad. I would guestimate that 80% of the population are behaving just like we did during the lockdown. No one goes anywhere ever, except the pharmacie and the grocery. Masks are worn almost 100% of the time. People who are wearing their mask under their nose are called out in public. "Masque, madame, svp!".


I have to tell you, it is just depressing. Is Switzerland like this, or are you recovering and going about your business?
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Old 18.09.2020, 17:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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I know this thread has degenerated into a giant argument among a few of you, but I have an actual question. What is the general attitude like in CH now? Here in France, it is pretty sad. I would guestimate that 80% of the population are behaving just like we did during the lockdown. No one goes anywhere ever, except the pharmacie and the grocery. Masks are worn almost 100% of the time. People who are wearing their mask under their nose are called out in public. "Masque, madame, svp!".

I have to tell you, it is just depressing. Is Switzerland like this, or are you recovering and going about your business?
Not at all like what you describe here in the German part. Feels all pretty normal. But of course we don't have anywhere close to the solid numbers you guys are reporting. Don't know about Romandie though.
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Old 18.09.2020, 17:56
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Re: Coronavirus

Axa, I get that, still I find the whole Corona stuff extremely weird.

In the bus half the people are wearing the mask on their mouth. Few not wearing any mask. If Corona situation is so serious why is no one implementing the mask rule properly on public transport, shops etc? Fines, public flogging, fish hook, nose clamp

If masks are not really needed then why the hell am I torturing myself daily while half the bus is allowed to carry on like Royalty? Non mask wearers are allegedly danger to my life and I can't do anything about it!!!

Current implementation of mask rule = Murder is illegal but if you murder someone then you won't get any punishment
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  #12799  
Old 18.09.2020, 18:15
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I have to tell you, it is just depressing. Is Switzerland like this, or are you recovering and going about your business?
I was on holiday in Ticino for 10 days, difficult to see any corona impact to daily life, place was teaming actually.
Was in Basel today, same, life, at least on the surface, as normal.


What about the holiday season in the Dordogne? How did it go?
Last time i was there, a few years ago, was packed in July.
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Old 18.09.2020, 18:29
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Re: Coronavirus

So if one doesnt have to quaratine anymore (in canton Vaud) after having been in contact with an infected person, does that also apply when returning from a red list country?
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