Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #13121  
Old 27.09.2020, 20:50
komsomolez's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ausserschwyz
Posts: 492
Groaned at 16 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 644 Times in 277 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
As of today it seems the virus has mutated to be more contagious but slightly less deadly. There's no way of knowing whether it will mutate the other way.
Do you know any studies on that or is this your perception from looking at the much increased case numbers yet no real increase in deaths? Asking out of genuine interest as I have not seen any scientific opinion on that.
Reply With Quote
  #13122  
Old 27.09.2020, 21:19
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 10,609
Groaned at 77 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 17,469 Times in 7,861 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Do you know any studies on that or is this your perception from looking at the much increased case numbers yet no real increase in deaths? Asking out of genuine interest as I have not seen any scientific opinion on that.
I read an article recently on the sequencing of the mutations so far. It's kind of nerdy which is why I didn't share originally. I'll see if I can find it again.

Edit-
This is a long article, sorry. It isn't the article I read, but it is a balanced piece covering a particular mutation (D614G) that has caught the interest of virologists. Some virologists think this mutation has caused the virus to be more contagious but somehow less deadly. Others disagree. Virologist David Montefiori published his findings in a peer-reviewed journal in July (info in the article).
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02544-6

Last edited by 3Wishes; 27.09.2020 at 21:31.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #13123  
Old 27.09.2020, 22:30
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Zurich
Posts: 610
Groaned at 48 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 1,240 Times in 506 Posts
terrifisch has a reputation beyond reputeterrifisch has a reputation beyond reputeterrifisch has a reputation beyond reputeterrifisch has a reputation beyond reputeterrifisch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
You want the reaction time as short as possible. Hospitalisatons are delayed by one week, deaths another 1-2 weeks. If the numbers were available the focus would probably be on infections as that would reduce the delay by one week or so.

Look back to March/April and consider the difference two or three weeks can make.
I get the time lag but as we understand more about this virus, we become more adept in treatment (steroids, proning... and forget ventilators unless it is the last resort!).

I am not sure why the NHS, as RufusB mentioned, is overwhelmed at the moment. Maybe there are systemic issues in UK health care system that need to be addressed? That said, the US healthcare system needs an overhaul and then some. Most who have succumbed to COVID (outside of those in nursing homes or elder care facilities) have pre-existing comorbidities and many are unaware as they lack access to healthcare or frankly, are in denial about their condition.

Not easy but I worry about the long term effects on people in isolation who are scared to get treatment/screening. And those who have lost their jobs; others who already struggle with anxiety? I won't even venture into the economic costs here.

It is not just those who are vulnerable; it is also about those who have become vulnerable. That is my worry/concern. At what point do the efforts to contain this virus exceed those who could be affected versus those who become afflicted?

Last edited by terrifisch; 27.09.2020 at 22:43.
Reply With Quote
  #13124  
Old 28.09.2020, 00:20
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,782
Groaned at 329 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 10,784 Times in 3,752 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Here's a story featured in the Swiss press, who are far more optimistic than the UK media who seem intent on scaring Britain senseless and dancing with joy at every new bankruptcy.

The epidemiologist Marcel Salathé, professor at the ETH Lausanne and member of the federal coronavirus task force, sees clear progress in the fight against the coronavirus.

Just a month ago, the epidemiologist Marcel Salathé strongly criticized the crisis management of the Confederation and the cantons.

Now the member of the federal government's Corona Science Task Force sees a silver lining on the horizon.

As early as the beginning of 2021, Switzerland could be so far that Covid-19 is no longer worse than flu.

Whether it will be necessary to wear a mask at work in the coming winter remains to be seen. He does not share the opinion of people who feared that there would be a new wave of contagion in winter. On the contrary: he is assuming that the situation will soon improve, Salathé told the NZZ am Sontag.

The epidemiologist currently also sees the development of vaccines as very promising. The moment a vaccine is available or a drug is working and hospitalizations are under control, the situation will change completely. Then Covid-19 would become a flu-like disease.


Selected and translated clips from
https://www.20min.ch/story/covid-19-...e-916701903551
__________________


************************************
Fed up of smoking? 10 tips to quit in 10 days
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
This user groans at AbFab for this post:
  #13125  
Old 28.09.2020, 02:18
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,841
Groaned at 100 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 10,443 Times in 4,628 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Not easy but I worry about the long term effects on people in isolation who are scared to get treatment/screening. And those who have lost their jobs; others who already struggle with anxiety? I won't even venture into the economic costs here.

It is not just those who are vulnerable; it is also about those who have become vulnerable. That is my worry/concern. At what point do the efforts to contain this virus exceed those who could be affected versus those who become afflicted?
There's a very fine balance between the needs and care of people with pre-existing conditions within your post which I'm seeing replicated right across social and main stream media. How is society supposed to choose between the people with pre-existing anxiety and those with pre-existing physical ailments? One does not, and should not trump the other.

There's a significant sector of society which is rarely mentioned in the media (social or otherwise) yet appears on the vulnerable lists of the UK and Switzerland, and it's pregnant women.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #13126  
Old 28.09.2020, 08:00
Motorschweitz's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bassersdorf
Posts: 406
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 729 Times in 263 Posts
Motorschweitz has a reputation beyond reputeMotorschweitz has a reputation beyond reputeMotorschweitz has a reputation beyond reputeMotorschweitz has a reputation beyond reputeMotorschweitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Two observational studies have shown a correlation in viral load and disease severity. In one study:

Quote:
The authors concluded that the downward trend in viral load may indicate that the pandemic is becoming less severe, implementation of physical distancing and lockdowns may have decreased overall exposure to the coronavirus, and analyzing viral loads over time may be a good way to assess pandemic progress.
And the other:

Quote:
Researchers analyzed data from 373 COVID-19 patients in an emergency department in the northern city of Negrar to assess a possible association between the severity of coronavirus signs and symptoms with viral load as the pandemic transitioned from high to low transmission.

As patient viral loads declined over the course of the pandemic, the percentage of patients admitted to the ICU declined substantially from March (6.7%) to April (1.1%), and May (0.0%).

"As the epidemiological context changed from high to low transmission setting, people were presumably exposed to a lower viral load, which has been previously associated to less severe clinical manifestations," the authors wrote.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Motorschweitz for this useful post:
  #13127  
Old 28.09.2020, 08:26
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Risch
Posts: 726
Groaned at 35 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 786 Times in 401 Posts
KiwiSteve has a reputation beyond reputeKiwiSteve has a reputation beyond reputeKiwiSteve has a reputation beyond reputeKiwiSteve has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Two observational studies have shown a correlation in viral load and disease severity. In one study:



And the other:
Really interesting.
Would mean that viral load is more important than strain of the virus - all those soft measures; social distancing, masks, hygiene are actually working - good news all round, also for the vaccine and treatments.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank KiwiSteve for this useful post:
  #13128  
Old 28.09.2020, 13:09
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,497
Groaned at 391 Times in 339 Posts
Thanked 16,709 Times in 9,046 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I get the time lag but as we understand more about this virus, we become more adept in treatment (steroids, proning... and forget ventilators unless it is the last resort!).

I am not sure why the NHS, as RufusB mentioned, is overwhelmed at the moment. Maybe there are systemic issues in UK health care system that need to be addressed? That said, the US healthcare system needs an overhaul and then some. Most who have succumbed to COVID (outside of those in nursing homes or elder care facilities) have pre-existing comorbidities and many are unaware as they lack access to healthcare or frankly, are in denial about their condition.

Not easy but I worry about the long term effects on people in isolation who are scared to get treatment/screening. And those who have lost their jobs; others who already struggle with anxiety? I won't even venture into the economic costs here.

It is not just those who are vulnerable; it is also about those who have become vulnerable. That is my worry/concern. At what point do the efforts to contain this virus exceed those who could be affected versus those who become afflicted?
Sure but the pandemic is here and it is a major emergency that people are right to worry about.
You write about people in isolation who are scared to get treatment/screening. But without isolation would they still be scared to get treatment/screening, I suspect they would.
How many of the stress effects would remain even with no lockdowns?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #13129  
Old 28.09.2020, 14:28
Ace1's Avatar
A modal singularity
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 8,416
Groaned at 328 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 14,007 Times in 6,155 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Now the member of the federal government's Corona Science Task Force sees a silver lining on the horizon.

As early as the beginning of 2021, Switzerland could be so far that Covid-19 is no longer worse than flu.

Selected and translated clips from
https://www.20min.ch/story/covid-19-...e-916701903551
Selected indeed, or maybe selective. I searched out and read the French version of the story and realised that what he actually said was
Quote:
«Dès qu’un vaccin sera disponible ou qu’un médicament sera efficace et que les hospitalisations seront sous contrôle, la situation changera complètement», assure le professeur à l’École polytechnique fédérale de Lausanne (EFFL). La maladie à coronavirus 2019 (Covid-19) sera alors au même niveau qu’une grippe saisonnière, selon lui.
My translation:
Quote:
As soon as a vaccine becomes available or an effective treatment is found, and that hospitalisation rates are stabilised, the situation will change completely.... and Covid-19 will then be on a par with seasonal flu.
So not quite the same meaning as you inferred.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #13130  
Old 28.09.2020, 14:56
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 10,609
Groaned at 77 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 17,469 Times in 7,861 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

I don't know a lot about vaccines, but I found this article interesting (sorry, clickbait headline).

Half a million sharks may need to die for vaccine

Originally I saw a different article but it didn't explain why such a measure could be necessary. Learn something new every day.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #13131  
Old 28.09.2020, 18:15
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,497
Groaned at 391 Times in 339 Posts
Thanked 16,709 Times in 9,046 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Some promising results of early tests of different nasal sprays to combat COVID-19; if the full tests are OK then once or twice a week usage is claimed to be enough.
Reply With Quote
  #13132  
Old 28.09.2020, 18:50
Ace1's Avatar
A modal singularity
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 8,416
Groaned at 328 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 14,007 Times in 6,155 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

A note for clarity:

Quote:
View Post
I searched out and read the French version of the story and realised that what he actually said was

My translation:
Quote:
As soon as a vaccine becomes available or an effective treatment is found, and that hospitalisation rates are stabilised, the situation will change completely.... and Covid-19 will then be on a par with seasonal flu.
So not quite the same meaning as you inferred.
By which I meant that the article you quoted mentioned his optimism about things being "flu-like" by early 2021, appearing to separate this from the bit about vaccines or treatments, whereas I read it that it's entirely dependent thereon. Poor journalism, for sure.
Reply With Quote
  #13133  
Old 28.09.2020, 18:55
Ace1's Avatar
A modal singularity
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 8,416
Groaned at 328 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 14,007 Times in 6,155 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Some promising results of early tests of different nasal sprays to combat COVID-19; if the full tests are OK then once or twice a week usage is claimed to be enough.
Very early days yet, assuming you're referring to this one

Not even at phase 2 entry into humans testing yet, so don't expect anything for some months or even years (in the normal flow of things) yet.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #13134  
Old 28.09.2020, 21:30
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: TI
Posts: 149
Groaned at 12 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 243 Times in 124 Posts
chrissie7 has an excellent reputationchrissie7 has an excellent reputationchrissie7 has an excellent reputationchrissie7 has an excellent reputation
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I am not sure why the NHS, as RufusB mentioned, is overwhelmed at the moment. Maybe there are systemic issues in UK health care system that need to be addressed?
The NHS is not overwhelmed at the moment, but a rather scaremongering report in the Guardian a few weeks ago claimed that it would be if there were a second wave this winter - and that it would have been if it had had to deal with the first wave alongside winter flu... Its analysis excluded capacity of the Nightingale hospitals and the private sector. As the Nightingale hospitals were severely underused, if at all, the first time round, it's difficult to assess how overstretched the NHS would be. But of course there are systemic issues too.

Last edited by chrissie7; 28.09.2020 at 21:31. Reason: added last sentence
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank chrissie7 for this useful post:
  #13135  
Old 28.09.2020, 22:35
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,497
Groaned at 391 Times in 339 Posts
Thanked 16,709 Times in 9,046 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
The NHS is not overwhelmed at the moment, but a rather scaremongering report in the Guardian a few weeks ago claimed that it would be if there were a second wave this winter - and that it would have been if it had had to deal with the first wave alongside winter flu... Its analysis excluded capacity of the Nightingale hospitals and the private sector. As the Nightingale hospitals were severely underused, if at all, the first time round, it's difficult to assess how overstretched the NHS would be. But of course there are systemic issues too.
Yes, the main factor in several countries was systemic

Doctors working in ICU's were not informed how to transfer patients to those reserve facilities and there was no solid process to make the transfer.
Reply With Quote
  #13136  
Old 28.09.2020, 22:41
komsomolez's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ausserschwyz
Posts: 492
Groaned at 16 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 644 Times in 277 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Two observational studies have shown a correlation in viral load and disease severity. In one study:



And the other:
Hm. Couldn't that be the same phenomenon that caused the other study to look into virus mutation (spreading faster but less deadly)? So many papers, so much still to be proven.
Reply With Quote
  #13137  
Old 28.09.2020, 23:33
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 3,780
Groaned at 154 Times in 104 Posts
Thanked 6,931 Times in 2,725 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Here's a story featured in the Swiss press, who are far more optimistic than the UK media who seem intent on scaring Britain senseless and dancing with joy at every new bankruptcy.

The epidemiologist Marcel Salathé, professor at the ETH Lausanne and member of the federal coronavirus task force, sees clear progress in the fight against the coronavirus.

Just a month ago, the epidemiologist Marcel Salathé strongly criticized the crisis management of the Confederation and the cantons.

Now the member of the federal government's Corona Science Task Force sees a silver lining on the horizon.

As early as the beginning of 2021, Switzerland could be so far that Covid-19 is no longer worse than flu.

Whether it will be necessary to wear a mask at work in the coming winter remains to be seen. He does not share the opinion of people who feared that there would be a new wave of contagion in winter. On the contrary: he is assuming that the situation will soon improve, Salathé told the NZZ am Sontag.

The epidemiologist currently also sees the development of vaccines as very promising. The moment a vaccine is available or a drug is working and hospitalizations are under control, the situation will change completely. Then Covid-19 would become a flu-like disease.


Selected and translated clips from
https://www.20min.ch/story/covid-19-...e-916701903551
But notice the use of the word "assuming" in there. He also seems to be assuming that a successful vaccine will be developed soon and that it will be quickly and easily made available to the overwhelming majority of people across the planet.

Trust me, I hope he's right. But I don't think anyone really knows what the situation is going to be like a few months from now or a year from now. And I think it's a bit absurd to base one's beliefs or expectations on hope alone. So yes, we can hope that there won't be a bad "second wave" this winter, as predicted, and we can hope that a successful vaccine will soon be made available, but only time will tell.

Salathé may also have a bit of a personal bias in trying to project an optimistic outcome, being that he is a member of the government's coronavirus task force. Perhaps he just wants it to seem as though they have everything under control.

But as I said, only time will tell. I think this pandemic has been a steep learning curve for our species overall.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #13138  
Old 29.09.2020, 00:11
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,497
Groaned at 391 Times in 339 Posts
Thanked 16,709 Times in 9,046 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Very early days yet, assuming you're referring to this one

Not even at phase 2 entry into humans testing yet, so don't expect anything for some months or even years (in the normal flow of things) yet.
Sure but so far as I understand the approval path for things like nasal sprays and gargle cleansers is much quicker and less rigorous than for medicines and vaccines.
Reply With Quote
  #13139  
Old 29.09.2020, 08:39
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,782
Groaned at 329 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 10,784 Times in 3,752 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
But notice the use of the word "assuming" in there. He also seems to be assuming that a successful vaccine will be developed soon and that it will be quickly and easily made available to the overwhelming majority of people across the planet.

Trust me, I hope he's right. But I don't think anyone really knows what the situation is going to be like a few months from now or a year from now. And I think it's a bit absurd to base one's beliefs or expectations on hope alone. So yes, we can hope that there won't be a bad "second wave" this winter, as predicted, and we can hope that a successful vaccine will soon be made available, but only time will tell.

Salathé may also have a bit of a personal bias in trying to project an optimistic outcome, being that he is a member of the government's coronavirus task force. Perhaps he just wants it to seem as though they have everything under control.

But as I said, only time will tell. I think this pandemic has been a steep learning curve for our species overall.
Yes, let's take a bit of potential light at the end of the tunnel and paint it dark.

This is how the UK media are playing it at the moment. The London Times carried 15 different items on Covit/Corona items yesterday all scaring the sh!t out of readers.

I had a phone call from a desperate friend in tears in a car park in Yorkshire as Lidl were sold out of toilet paper - again. She is scared stiff that her daughter at collage will come home with the news that a class mate has tested positive and her whole family will have to quarantine.

There will be deep mental scars from various governments' handling and mishandling of this pandemic - and taking a negative attitude will not help...
__________________


************************************
Fed up of smoking? 10 tips to quit in 10 days
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
  #13140  
Old 29.09.2020, 09:05
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 501
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 567 Times in 288 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Yes, let's take a bit of potential light at the end of the tunnel and paint it dark.

This is how the UK media are playing it at the moment. The London Times carried 15 different items on Covit/Corona items yesterday all scaring the sh!t out of readers.

I had a phone call from a desperate friend in tears in a car park in Yorkshire as Lidl were sold out of toilet paper - again. She is scared stiff that her daughter at collage will come home with the news that a class mate has tested positive and her whole family will have to quarantine.

There will be deep mental scars from various governments' handling and mishandling of this pandemic - and taking a negative attitude will not help...
Totally agreed. I won't vote Conservative again as long as this team are in place.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 40 (19 members and 21 guests)
HickvonFrick, terrifisch, BLP, marton, chuk, bunnehroo, Katerina Nick, Mélusine, bonaire, Limestone, komsomolez, John_H, bosco, raju, Medea Fleecestealer, Pancakes
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0