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Old 07.10.2020, 22:18
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Re: Coronavirus

Hmmm... So why the sudden interest/alarm in "new infections" exactly?

We know much more about this virus and how to treat it (steroids/anti virals etc...) Death rates are lower as are hospitalizations...

Again, the initial lockdown was to protect hospitals not being overwhelmed. And now, the goalpost has shifted... Now we need to eradicate the virus and infections COMPLETELY before we will ever be safe...????

WHAT??!! This virus is here to stay just like the flu...Learn to live with it just like automobile fatalities, cancer, heart disease etc...

Should we live in fear for the rest of our lives? And what about those who are too afraid to seek physical or mental health care? My friend has stage 2 stomach cancer and she is frightened to get more screening for fear of catching COVID.

This is beyond nuts in my view. I just don't get it ...At all!!

Okay..my rant is over
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Old 07.10.2020, 22:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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Me neither. You've got to hand it to the Swiss and their attitude of pragmatism and selber schuld.


One of my friends commented on it after seeing a cherry picker moving around Geneva train station, one guy, in the cage, up and down the platform, with no cones, no security guard etc.
In the UK that would have been a major HSE operation.
Actually, Switzerland has the same EU compliant HSE regulations as the UK.
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  #13283  
Old 07.10.2020, 22:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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Hmmm... So why the sudden interest/alarm in "new infections" exactly?

We know much more about this virus and how to treat it (steroids/anti virals etc...) Death rates are lower as are hospitalizations...

Again, the initial lockdown was to protect hospitals not being overwhelmed. And now, the goalpost has shifted... Now we need to eradicate the virus and infections COMPLETELY before we will ever be safe...????

WHAT??!! This virus is here to stay just like the flu...Learn to live with it just like automobile fatalities, cancer, heart disease etc...

Should we live in fear for the rest of our lives? And what about those who are too afraid to seek physical or mental health care? My friend has stage 2 stomach cancer and she is frightened to get more screening for fear of catching COVID.

This is beyond nuts in my view. I just don't get it ...At all!!

Okay..my rant is over
I don’t think we know enough about treating and containing the virus. If we did, the White House would not be virus central. Even if you can treat the virus, it makes sense to try to contain it. And while the death rate is low, there are still a number of “long haulers”, people with persistent morbidity. I don’t think their identification is a done deal.

As for treatment, we know more, but there’s still a lot of experimentation, and not everyone will get remdesivir and monoclonal antibodies, although steroids are cheap and plentiful. The experience of Trump suggests giving these things earlier rather than later might be the way to go, but are these resources available for the average schmuck?

From what I hear about the US, anyway, health systems are still overwhelmed. Here, I’m not so sure.

I’m older, have had cancer, so I’m naturally cautious. I wear a mask and wash my hands. A lot.

I really don’t see this as a shift...more a continuation.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:03
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Re: Coronavirus

While I agree that deaths and hospitalizations aren’t raising as fast as the new cases, let’s not forget that close to 40% of Covid patients show long term secondary effects. While they’re not all terribly serious, it has an impact on someone’s life. I still suffer from headaches, tiredness and a total loss of sense of smell, for instance. It doesn’t prevent me from living my life, but it’s inconvenient.
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  #13285  
Old 07.10.2020, 23:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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Hmmm... So why the sudden interest/alarm in "new infections" exactly?

We know much more about this virus and how to treat it (steroids/anti virals etc...) Death rates are lower as are hospitalizations...

Again, the initial lockdown was to protect hospitals not being overwhelmed. And now, the goalpost has shifted... Now we need to eradicate the virus and infections COMPLETELY before we will ever be safe...????

WHAT??!! This virus is here to stay just like the flu...Learn to live with it just like automobile fatalities, cancer, heart disease etc...

Should we live in fear for the rest of our lives? And what about those who are too afraid to seek physical or mental health care? My friend has stage 2 stomach cancer and she is frightened to get more screening for fear of catching COVID.

This is beyond nuts in my view. I just don't get it ...At all!!

Okay..my rant is over
We are not yet in the stage where it is "normal life" and where we know how to handle the virus and keep it in check, that is many months away. Infections are again accelerating and it is not in control in many countries. When we have a vaccine to suppress it, then we can do the stuff you are talking about.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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While I agree that deaths and hospitalizations aren’t raising as fast as the new cases, let’s not forget that close to 40% of Covid patients show long term secondary effects.
That is simply not true. There's no serious, randomized control trial that covers a big enough sample to show anything like this. There's some anecdotal cases, and a few very specific samples. What is long-term effect? What are the symptoms? What were the pre-existing conditions of these supposed cases? These are all un-answered questions. The only fact is, the cases are rising and death rate is not rising even close to it. Stop with the alarmism, we know it's not nearly as lethal as assumed.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don’t think we know enough about treating and containing the virus. If we did, the White House would not be virus central. Even if you can treat the virus, it makes sense to try to contain it. And while the death rate is low, there are still a number of “long haulers”, people with persistent morbidity. I don’t think their identification is a done deal.

As for treatment, we know more, but there’s still a lot of experimentation, and not everyone will get remdesivir and monoclonal antibodies, although steroids are cheap and plentiful. The experience of Trump suggests giving these things earlier rather than later might be the way to go, but are these resources available for the average schmuck?

From what I hear about the US, anyway, health systems are still overwhelmed. Here, I’m not so sure.

I’m older, have had cancer, so I’m naturally cautious. I wear a mask and wash my hands. A lot.

I really don’t see this as a shift...more a continuation.
I am sorry to hear you are compromised Ennui... That said, the COVID narrative has definitely shifted from safeguarding hospitals to lowering infection rates. And sorry, as this is a virus, infections of course will increase. That is the very nature of a virus...it will spread.

So the safeguards/"continuation" as you reference, benefit those like you who are compromised but what about others who need heath care and are too frightened to seek treatment - both mental and physical? Are your needs greater than theirs?

Therein, lies the caveat so to speak. I suspect that there are unintended consequences with this Covid "crisis". And the short term "benefit" will be worse than the long term consequences both physical and I won't even mention economic and how that takes a toll on one's physical/mental health . But, hey, I could be wrong here. Time will tell... PS..in many states in the US, the hospitals are not overwhelmed.
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  #13288  
Old 07.10.2020, 23:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Hmmm... So why the sudden interest/alarm in "new infections" exactly?
I think part of it is simply knee-jerk reaction based on the past. Last time cases spiked like this, so did hospitalizations and deaths. There's a real fear of it happening again as the weather gets colder and people mingle more. So far in summer hospitalizations and deaths haven't risen, but that doesn't mean they will stay low-ish as winter sets in.

It does seem the goalposts have shifted in many places. I think that's because the measures mostly worked - we didn't just flatten but nearly eliminated the curve. Then the new goal became keeping it eliminated, because why not - we nearly did already! That nearly eliminated curve looks nice.

Governments don't want to look like they made wrong choices in the past, nor that they're making wrong choices now. They're being cautious.

Sadly, your friend needs to make a choice. IMO it's like this: she has cancer. That's the 100% certain thing. She can take actions against that certain thing.

She does not have Covid and even if she were to catch it, it's not an automatic death sentence. Not even for a cancer patient. It's not even remotely a certain thing that she'd catch Covid much less die from it. Could she have long-term side effects? Sure, but at least IMO untreated cancer is worse in the long run.

In her shoes, I'd take care of the certain thing, the thing I can control by getting treatment. If I got Covid too, well I'd deal with that if and when it happened. But that's just me.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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That is simply not true. There's no serious, randomized control trial that covers a big enough sample to show anything like this. There's some anecdotal cases, and a few very specific samples. What is long-term effect? What are the symptoms? What were the pre-existing conditions of these supposed cases? These are all un-answered questions. The only fact is, the cases are rising and death rate is not rising even close to it. Stop with the alarmism, we know it's not nearly as lethal as assumed.
It is not possible to have had a study of long term effects because the virus has not been around long enough.
There is no requirement for a randomized control trial because it is only necessary to study people who have had the virus and survived.
Nature postulates long term effects of ca. 50% of people hospitalised and 10% of all survivors.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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It is not possible to have had a study of long term effects because the virus has not been around long enough.
Thank you for repeating what I already said.

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That is simply not true.
And no, Nature magazine DID NOT say this, read your own article. Quote:

"Gholamrezanezhad says ...his best guess is that it is less than 10%" Which is simply an opinion of someone with no hard data to back it up. We're back to anecdotes.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think part of it is simply knee-jerk reaction based on the past. Last time cases spiked like this, so did hospitalizations and deaths. There's a real fear of it happening again as the weather gets colder and people mingle more. So far in summer hospitalizations and deaths haven't risen, but that doesn't mean they will stay low-ish as winter sets in.

It does seem the goalposts have shifted in many places. I think that's because the measures mostly worked - we didn't just flatten but nearly eliminated the curve. Then the new goal became keeping it eliminated, because why not - we nearly did already! That nearly eliminated curve looks nice.

Governments don't want to look like they made wrong choices in the past, nor that they're making wrong choices now. They're being cautious.

Sadly, your friend needs to make a choice. IMO it's like this: she has cancer. That's the 100% certain thing. She can take actions against that certain thing.

She does not have Covid and even if she were to catch it, it's not an automatic death sentence. Not even for a cancer patient. It's not even remotely a certain thing that she'd catch Covid much less die from it. Could she have long-term side effects? Sure, but at least IMO untreated cancer is worse in the long run.

In her shoes, I'd take care of the certain thing, the thing I can control by getting treatment. If I got Covid too, well I'd deal with that if and when it happened. But that's just me.
The US covid project is showing a slight rise in hospitalisations up to 6th Oct.
Name:  hospitalisations071020.jpg
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here are the CDC hospitalisations numbers.

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Wisconsin to open field hospital as COVID-19 hospitalizations surge
The governor’s office announced Wednesday a field hospital located at the state fairgrounds will begin taking patients next week.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:41
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Re: Coronavirus

Panenka is on IC with Covid, Hope he gets well.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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Thank you for repeating what I already said.



And no, Nature magazine DID NOT say this, read your own article. Quote:

"Gholamrezanezhad says ...his best guess is that it is less than 10%" Which is simply an opinion of someone with no hard data to back it up. We're back to anecdotes.
I wrote "Nature postulates" maybe you should look up the meaning of "postulates"?
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wrote "Nature postulates" maybe you should look up the meaning of "postulates"?
Bottomline: there's no serious and large study that comes up with any figure about long-term effects. Twist it any way you want, there simply isn't.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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Panenka is on IC with Covid, Hope he gets well.
Me too.

What a hero.
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  #13296  
Old 07.10.2020, 23:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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That is simply not true. There's no serious, randomized control trial that covers a big enough sample to show anything like this. There's some anecdotal cases, and a few very specific samples. What is long-term effect? What are the symptoms? What were the pre-existing conditions of these supposed cases? These are all un-answered questions. The only fact is, the cases are rising and death rate is not rising even close to it. Stop with the alarmism, we know it's not nearly as lethal as assumed.
Below is an interesting read on this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54296223

The truth is that infection rates are going up and still no country has proven how to control it lock down or not. Also what everyone claim to know changes all the time, which makes it even more complicated.

Personally I prefer whats best for the health over economy. Economic downfall can be recovered by a healthy population.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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Bottomline: there's no serious and large study that comes up with any figure about long-term effects. Twist it any way you want, there simply isn't.
Because there cannot be, given that we are some 9 months into this. You can keep calling this "anecdotal evidence" but unless you are a doctor in a Covid / ER station, I don't care.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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WHAT??!! This virus is here to stay just like the flu...Learn to live with it just like automobile fatalities, cancer, heart disease etc...
And with all of those things that you mentioned, we normally take precautionary measures to try to prevent them. Not to mention the fact that automobile fatalities, cancer and heart disease aren't contagious. And with the flu, there is a vaccine for that (flu shots). There is no flu shot or vaccine for COVID.

Another reason you can't compare the flu to COVID is because unlike with the flu, COVID can be asymptomatic, which means people spread it more easily (unknowingly), whereas when they have the flu, they usually stay home and take measures to try to not spread it.

Our species would be incredibly careless and irresponsible to just let this virus run rampant without taking any measures to try to have some degree of control over its spread. This virus isn't something that people should just simply not care if they get or if other people get it. But apparently, some people do think it's no big deal unless it is themselves or someone they love who is ill from it or in a hospital bed.
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Old 07.10.2020, 23:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Below is an interesting read on this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54296223
"Its latest, unpublished data, suggests as many as one in 50 (2%) of all people infected have long-Covid symptoms after 90 days..."
2%, small sample, unpublished. Anecdotal and small
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Old 08.10.2020, 00:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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I am sorry to hear you are compromised Ennui... That said, the COVID narrative has definitely shifted from safeguarding hospitals to lowering infection rates. And sorry, as this is a virus, infections of course will increase. That is the very nature of a virus...it will spread.

So the safeguards/"continuation" as you reference, benefit those like you who are compromised but what about others who need heath care and are too frightened to seek treatment - both mental and physical? Are your needs greater than theirs?

Therein, lies the caveat so to speak. I suspect that there are unintended consequences with this Covid "crisis". And the short term "benefit" will be worse than the long term consequences both physical and I won't even mention economic and how that takes a toll on one's physical/mental health . But, hey, I could be wrong here. Time will tell... PS..in many states in the US, the hospitals are not overwhelmed.
Of course my needs aren’t greater. But despite being high risk, I am not afraid to seek care. So for people who are afraid, what will make them less afraid? Loosening restrictions? How does that work exactly? If the infection rate climbs, how will people feel safer? Ignoring the risk, or using protective measures to limit risk?

My sister works in the film industry. She’s a costumer, and she’s delighted to have work....it’s so important that people get back to work, I agree. But union film production has pretty stringent rules for working. Masks, face shields, aprons on crew - essentially ppe. And she gets tested 3 times weekly. And when they move to location, a 10 day quarantine. It’s a pain in the ass, but they are working. Finally. But do you think these measures are excessive?

It’s horrible that so many small businesses are in trouble. But how could we have prevented this? In the US, maybe by listening to scientists, providing PPE, and limiting the posturing and obfuscating bullshit that’s been the story since January. I don’t know...
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