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Old 08.10.2020, 15:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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To be honest, you know you're arguing about a simple phrase and it all looks a bit silly. You're trying to prove your point by phrasing long-term as in years. Others are counting many months as long-term. Maybe in the end we'll learn it's both months and years that people continue to struggle.
Similar question to you as the one I asked Greenmount: why does a challenge to a statement that is wrong becomes "silly" just because you tend to disagree with the general view of the challenger? At the same time, really silly "facts" go unnoticed and even liked simply because you tend to agree with the person in general? Don't you think that there's a certain loss if debate is not free? I should probably stop now as I risk getting banned again for disagreeing with a mod like last week, but this panic-room sometimes produces exceptional alarmism


And no, I've never tried to re-phrase long-term, you misunderstood me. I simply challenged the 40% which was presented as a fact.
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  #13322  
Old 08.10.2020, 18:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yikes. That's been quite the increase in the past few days. At this rate, I can't help but wonder what the numbers could be a month from now.

I guess this is the "second wave."

ON the bright side, virus expert say it's not the 2nd wave. https://www.thelocal.ch/20201008/not...red-with-april


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Salathé told Watson a major reason for the new numbers was an increase in testing - with far more tests being carried out now than in March and April. Much less testing was done in the spring. We missed nine out of ten cases at the time.We do not know how many cases remain undetected today. But there are definitely a lot less. Therefore the two situations have nothing in common.
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  #13323  
Old 08.10.2020, 18:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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ON the bright side, virus expert say it's not the 2nd wave. https://www.thelocal.ch/20201008/not...red-with-april


[URL="https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/interview/779125599-das-sagt-marcel-salathe-zu-den-hohen-corona-zahlen-vom-bag-am-mittwoch"]
That is all semantics. In Germany, one of the TV virologists talks about a "permanent wave" ("Dauerwelle", which i thought was a questionable hairstyle).

What is of concern is the high positivity rate. I assume hospitals will also get busier soon, but here the really good news is that risk of death once hospitalized is a fraction compared to what it was in spring (some US numbers say 25%, but don't have a firm source). That is amazing progress, and hats off to the medical staff everywhere.
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Old 08.10.2020, 20:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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Were they? Maybe for import but not for sale? I'm 99% certain that the overpriced box of paper masks I bought at Coop a while back are probably ineffective and don't meet standards, but no one has offered to give me my money back or exchange for something that's approved.
According to the link, that was posted
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Swissmedic, the agency responsible for market surveillance of medical devices, subsequently launched five administrative proceedings.
One of them led to masks being banned from the market for medical use.
More details here.
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  #13325  
Old 08.10.2020, 21:49
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Re: Coronavirus

Very little media coverage on this, but "The Great Barrington Declaration" was recently published and signed by some notable epidemiologists, doctors and scientists. Here is a link to their declaration:

https://gbdeclaration.org
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Old 08.10.2020, 22:22
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Re: Coronavirus

This man thought coronavirus was a hoax—then he got sick
https://abcnews.go.com/US/voters-gra...posts_card_hed

"Tony Green of Dallas, a supporter of President Donald Trump, said he believed the coronavirus pandemic was a hoax designed to create panic and hurt the president's chances of reelection -- until, at 43, he ended up hospitalized with the virus.

After Green hosted a family gathering at his home in June, he says more than a dozen of his family members contracted COVID-19. Two of them died from complications.

"I'd love to take it back. I'd love to still have him and her here," Green told ABC News. "I'd like to have the opportunity to go back and save others and take this whole thing much more seriously."

Green posted an op-ed column about his family's story in July.

"Having been a denier, carelessly shuffling through this pandemic, making fun of those wearing masks and social distancing leads me to believe, my actions convinced both our families it was safe when it wasn't," he wrote."
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Old 08.10.2020, 22:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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Very little media coverage on this, but "The Great Barrington Declaration" was recently published and signed by some notable epidemiologists, doctors and scientists. Here is a link to their declaration:

https://gbdeclaration.org
Even the BBC posted it, but they quickly made sure it buried under the usual avalanche of alarmism.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54442386

The voice of reason has started to emerge, policymakers are already aware about the fact that they need to re-think the suicidal lockdowns, but (as can be seen on EF as well) it will take longer, slower process to convince voters who were being convinced just 6 months ago that this is the worst thing in our lifetimes.
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  #13328  
Old 08.10.2020, 22:28
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Re: Coronavirus

For those who don't have the time to look at the Declaration, here is a synopsis:

As of Oct. 8, more than 9,000 medical practitioners and 4,000 medical and public health scientists have joined more than 120,000 members of the general public in signing the petition, which was created on Oct. 4 and co-authored by Harvard professor of medicine Dr. Martin Kulldorff, Oxford professor Dr. Sunetra Gupta, and Stanford Medical School professor Dr. Jay Bhattacharya.

“As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection,” reads the petition, which is titled the Great Barrington Declaration after the Massachusetts town it was signed in.

The petition calls for an end to current lockdown policies, saying that they are producing “devastating effects” on short- and long-term public health.

Some of these devastating effects, the doctors wrote, including lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings, and deteriorating mental health. They argue that this will, in the future, lead to greater excess mortality, with the working class and younger generation “carrying the heaviest burden.”

“Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice,” the petition continues. “Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.”


They instead insist on an approach that instead focuses on protecting the most vulnerable, while working toward achieving so-called herd immunity, which they describe as “Focused Protection.”

“The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk,” the doctors state.

“Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal,” the petition adds.
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  #13329  
Old 08.10.2020, 22:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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Even the BBC posted it, but they quickly made sure it buried under the usual avalanche of alarmism.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54442386

The voice of reason has started to emerge, policymakers are already aware about the fact that they need to re-think the suicidal lockdowns, but (as can be seen on EF as well) it will take longer, slower process to convince voters who were being convinced just 6 months ago that this is the worst thing in our lifetimes.
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Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick, should be practised by everyone.

But:

young low-risk individuals should be allowed to work normally
schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching
sports and cultural activities could resume and restaurants reopen
Is this not the case in most countries already? Seems this declaration is mostly about the full lockdown rather than what we have now
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Old 08.10.2020, 23:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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For those who don't have the time to look at the Declaration, here is a synopsis:

As of Oct. 8, more than 9,000 medical practitioners and 4,000 medical and public health scientists have joined more than 120,000 members of the general public in signing the petition, which was created on Oct. 4 and co-authored by Harvard professor of medicine Dr. Martin Kulldorff, Oxford professor Dr. Sunetra Gupta, and Stanford Medical School professor Dr. Jay Bhattacharya.

“As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection,” reads the petition, which is titled the Great Barrington Declaration after the Massachusetts town it was signed in.

The petition calls for an end to current lockdown policies, saying that they are producing “devastating effects” on short- and long-term public health.

Some of these devastating effects, the doctors wrote, including lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings, and deteriorating mental health. They argue that this will, in the future, lead to greater excess mortality, with the working class and younger generation “carrying the heaviest burden.”

“Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice,” the petition continues. “Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.”


They instead insist on an approach that instead focuses on protecting the most vulnerable, while working toward achieving so-called herd immunity, which they describe as “Focused Protection.”

“The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk,” the doctors state.

“Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal,” the petition adds.
From the BBC report; "whether herd immunity is even achievable remains unclear".
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  #13331  
Old 08.10.2020, 23:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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For those who don't have the time to look at the Declaration, here is a synopsis....
I wonder how many medical professionals didn't sign that Declaration. Just before coming here, I was reading an article where a nurse who works in a hospital was expressing her frustrations about people not taking the virus more seriously.

I think it's very irresponsible for the petition to claim that “Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice." It's not like kids aren't learning. And maybe they should consider teachers' perspectives, since it is their own lives (and the lives of the people they are in contact with) that is on the line, as well as the parents'. My sister is a 3rd grade teacher in the US and she is mortified about having to teach in a classroom right now. And for myself, as a parent who is someone that is "high risk," I am mortified about having to send my son to school every day, knowing that schools are like little "virus factories" and that if I catch the virus, I will most likely not survive.

To say that people should just lead their lives normally during a pandemic and to not give a shit about the spread of the virus is completely irresponsible. There are so many variables involved that the authors of that Declaration never even bothered to consider. And I can't help but wonder how many "medical professionals" that signed that Declaration are NOT the ones working in hospitals and having to see how severely ill some people become from this virus.
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  #13332  
Old 09.10.2020, 07:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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For those who don't have the time to look at the Declaration, here is a synopsis:

As of Oct. 8, more than 9,000 medical practitioners and 4,000 medical and public health scientists have joined more than 120,000 members of the general public in signing the petition, which was created on Oct. 4 and co-authored by Harvard professor of medicine Dr. Martin Kulldorff, Oxford professor Dr. Sunetra Gupta, and Stanford Medical School professor Dr. Jay Bhattacharya.

“As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection,” reads the petition, which is titled the Great Barrington Declaration after the Massachusetts town it was signed in.

The petition calls for an end to current lockdown policies, saying that they are producing “devastating effects” on short- and long-term public health.

Some of these devastating effects, the doctors wrote, including lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings, and deteriorating mental health. They argue that this will, in the future, lead to greater excess mortality, with the working class and younger generation “carrying the heaviest burden.”

“Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice,” the petition continues. “Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.”


They instead insist on an approach that instead focuses on protecting the most vulnerable, while working toward achieving so-called herd immunity, which they describe as “Focused Protection.”

“The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk,” the doctors state.

“Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal,” the petition adds.
There are several flaws in this as far as I’m concerned.

How do we define who is ‘vulnerable’ and what measures do they suggest for protecting them?
The ‘vulnerable’ people such as the elderly, mentally ill, people with chronic conditions etc are also the ones most at risk from being confined for any length of time. Loneliness and depression are big dangers too.

We have to learn to live with this virus as it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
For most of us that will probably mean adapting our lifestyle a bit but it won’t be forever.
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  #13333  
Old 09.10.2020, 08:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's not like kids aren't learning.
IMHO, social responsibility and consideration towards other people are also something young people these days should be learning more about.
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Old 09.10.2020, 08:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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There are several flaws in this as far as I’m concerned.
There are several flaws indeed, but correctable. The generally flawed lock-down is not correctable fundamentally. The logic of protecting the weak and vulnerable and let the low-risk get out, freely is sound. I am glad it's finally happening in the minds of governments. Of course, England is different, but who would have thought that they could come up with something sensible with BJ at the head

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IMHO, social responsibility and consideration towards other people are also something young people these days should be learning more about.
How lovely to put the blame on the young! You mean the people out of job, out of prospects that you and me had and the people that can't properly go to finish their studies? Yes, this is EXACTLY the target we should aim to fix everything
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Old 09.10.2020, 08:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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A misleading headline; according to your link unsafe masks were banned.
"Swissmedic, the agency responsible for market surveillance of medical devices, subsequently launched five administrative proceedings. One of them led to masks being banned from the market for medical use."
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  #13336  
Old 09.10.2020, 08:51
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Re: Coronavirus

A reanalysis of the Imperial College modelling that led to lockdown in March shows that shutting schools and preventing youngsters from mingling may have had the counterintuitive effect of actually killing more people.

In a study published in the BMJ, Edinburgh University predicted that over the entire course of the pandemic, keeping children out of classrooms would increase deaths by between 80,000 and 95,000. Likewise, social distancing of everyone, rather than just the over-70s, could cost between 149,000 and 178,000 lives.

Experts say the virus was able to spread faster to vulnerable people once lockdown measures were introduced than if some level of immunity had been allowed to build up in the young.

The authors of the new paper, who rediscovered the figures in their reappraisal, said the Government appeared to have chosen to protect the NHS in the short term, rather than save lives throughout the whole epidemic. Although it reduced peak demand for ICU beds, it prolonged the epidemic, resulting in more long-term Covid-19 deaths.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...tudy-suggests/
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Old 09.10.2020, 09:29
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Re: Coronavirus

Personally I'd like to see the living, and the older living at that, pay substantial taxes for the cost of these lockdowns.

I don't see why the young/middle aged (say everyone below 60) should be burdened with even more debt and taxes to pay for a disease which would not have harmed them (queue virtue signaller saying 'We don't know that! We don't know who is vulnerable until it's too late!')

Kids today moving into the workplace already have it tough (sky high housing costs, student debt) and now poor employment opportunities and the prospect of increased taxes.

Inheritance tax up to 100% for 20 years seems reasonable. This is basically a victimless tax. The person dead is not affected, the people who were going to receive the inheritance didn't earn it anyway.



Whatever happens, someone's gotta pay.
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Old 09.10.2020, 09:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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Personally I'd like to see the living, and the older living at that, pay substantial taxes for the cost of these lockdowns.

I don't see why the young/middle aged (say everyone below 60) should be burdened with even more debt and taxes to pay for a disease which would not have harmed them (queue virtue signaller saying 'We don't know that! We don't know who is vulnerable until it's too late!')

Kids today moving into the workplace already have it tough (sky high housing costs, student debt) and now poor employment opportunities and the prospect of increased taxes.

Inheritance tax up to 100% for 20 years seems reasonable. This is basically a victimless tax. The person dead is not affected, the people who were going to receive the inheritance didn't earn it anyway.



Whatever happens, someone's gotta pay.

Will you say that as well when you hit 60 and have to pay? Rather short sighted as one may hope that you reach that age
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Old 09.10.2020, 09:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Inheritance tax up to 100% for 20 years seems reasonable. This is basically a victimless tax. The person dead is not affected, the people who were going to receive the inheritance didn't earn it anyway.
This is very debatable.
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Old 09.10.2020, 09:50
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Re: Coronavirus

With fewer deaths caused by the virus, despite increasing infections, I am beginning to believe that the virus has weakened somewhat. However, it may also be that a decreased mortality rate is the result of better medicine.

Is it time we reassess our view of the virus?
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