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Old 10.10.2020, 23:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Some people have little tolerance for willful ignorance, and you really can't blame them.
are we still in democracy mode or not? I'd not mess opinion with action
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  #13442  
Old 11.10.2020, 00:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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Because inclined and believe are no arguments.

I seriously don't like these masks. Yet I have no problem adapting to this rule (and I'm not into rules much). I don't see why it's worth making a fuss over it.
Inclined and believe are all we have in the absence of any conclusive studies proving the efficacy of masks.

It’s worth making a fuss over because by now we should have seen some benefit of mandatory masks, as it is, we’ve seen nothing.
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  #13443  
Old 11.10.2020, 00:06
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Re: Coronavirus

All those hot spots involved large groups of people not wearing masks. If those infected had worn masks, they would not have caught the virus. Prove me wrong.
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Old 11.10.2020, 00:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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All those hot spots involved large groups of people not wearing masks. If those infected had worn masks, they would not have caught the virus. Prove me wrong.
The hot spots are everywhere across Europe at the moment. Numbers are rising all over the place, there has to be more to it than masks. Or perhaps, useless cloth masks and the reuse of surgical masks is even exacerbating infection rates?
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Old 11.10.2020, 00:28
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Re: Coronavirus

This thread was actually bearable again for a while, until Tony Clifton reappeared. I think this guy seriously just enjoys getting people to argue with him on the internet. Maybe because he's attention-starved or maybe because he's bored. Or both. I have no idea.

But I'm going to try my best from this point forward to not "feed the troll." It's a waste of time and energy.
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  #13446  
Old 11.10.2020, 00:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Inclined and believe are all we have in the absence of any conclusive studies proving the efficacy of masks.

It’s worth making a fuss over because by now we should have seen some benefit of mandatory masks, as it is, we’ve seen nothing.
We agree then. I misinterpreted the tone in your post.

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The hot spots are everywhere across Europe at the moment. Numbers are rising all over the place, there has to be more to it than masks. Or perhaps, useless cloth masks and the reuse of surgical masks is even exacerbating infection rates?
This is very likely.

The other thing is surfaces. I was wondering at one point: When do I wash my hands? Before I put away my shopping (which has been touched by tons of people) or after? And how long do I not touch the goods again and start to cook? LOL. I mean one can get seriously paranoid about all this, which I'm not willing to do.
And still there is not one covid-case in my closer or larger socioenvironment.
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  #13447  
Old 11.10.2020, 00:34
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Re: Coronavirus

It is all a mind _ _ _ k from all sides. Science is a bit politicised too. I really don't know what to believe.

Regarding masks not working, maybe they are working by reducing the viral load and hence rise in positive cases but not rise in death rate? Asymptomatic covid is a good thing to aim for maybe.

It does seem like that everyone incharge is clueless to some extent and some of the rules don't make perfect sense.
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  #13448  
Old 11.10.2020, 06:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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Regarding masks not working, maybe they are working by reducing the viral load and hence rise in positive cases but not rise in death rate? Asymptomatic covid is a good thing to aim for maybe.
This is the truth about masks, and where the widespread positive effect is felt. Minimising viral load.

No rules or practices can totally defeat the virus short of total isolation for several weeks - which non one wants. The inconsistent rules are also about minimising, not eradicating, while carrying on some semblance of normal life.
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  #13449  
Old 11.10.2020, 07:55
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Re: Coronavirus

So, anyone got any guesses for why the presidents so-called miracle drig cured didn't include Hydroxychloroquine? Really surprised no-one has asked him that.
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Old 11.10.2020, 08:39
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Re: Coronavirus

Yesterday on the bus someone had stuck a sticker "Mask is for idiots".
As usual 4-5 people without masks covering their nose.
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  #13451  
Old 11.10.2020, 09:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Also, if masks were effective, why has there been no influence on the seasonal flu infection rate either?

The seasonal flu was much milder and less widespread in the Southern Hemisphere this year, almost certainly due to the increased hygiene and distancing etc but masks probably helped too.
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  #13452  
Old 11.10.2020, 10:21
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Re: Coronavirus

Interesting article on the Swedish discourse on their Covid strategy.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...ierce-backlash
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  #13453  
Old 11.10.2020, 10:38
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Re: Coronavirus

WHO official urges world leaders to stop using lockdowns as primary virus control method

"Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health."
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  #13454  
Old 11.10.2020, 10:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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Inclined and believe are all we have in the absence of any conclusive studies proving the efficacy of masks.

It’s worth making a fuss over because by now we should have seen some benefit of mandatory masks, as it is, we’ve seen nothing.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

The above link is a long read from nature, and discusses a lot of problems with mounting any “conclusive” study and why there might not ever be any conclusive work. So rather than a single study, you need to piece the results together.

But I can’t agree, we’ve seen nothing. Is there evidence that hot spots arise with the use of masks? A practical example of the converse is the event held at the White House a couple weeks ago. What are we up to? 34 people that we know of?

The last few paragraphs of the Nature article describe the frustrations of scientists.


“Several scientists say that they are excited to see the results. But others worry that such experiments are wasteful and potentially exploit a vulnerable population. “If this was a gentler pathogen, it would be great,” says Eric Topol, director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute in La Jolla, California. “You can’t do randomized trials for everything — and you shouldn’t.” As clinical researchers are sometimes fond of saying, parachutes have never been tested in a randomized controlled trial, either.
.................

For now, Osterholm, in Minnesota, wears a mask. Yet he laments the “lack of scientific rigour” that has so far been brought to the topic. “We criticize people all the time in the science world for making statements without any data,” he says. “We’re doing a lot of the same thing here.”

Nevertheless, most scientists are confident that they can say something prescriptive about wearing masks. It’s not the only solution, says Gandhi, “but I think it is a profoundly important pillar of pandemic control”. As Digard puts it: “Masks work, but they are not infallible. And, therefore, keep your distance.””
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  #13455  
Old 11.10.2020, 10:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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WHO official urges world leaders to stop using lockdowns as primary virus control method

"Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health."
The article states that he also said the following:

“The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.”
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  #13456  
Old 11.10.2020, 11:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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Regarding masks not working, maybe they are working by reducing the viral load and hence rise in positive cases but not rise in death rate? Asymptomatic covid is a good thing to aim for maybe..
I expect this has far more to do with improved treatment 7 months into the pandemic rather than viral loads. Many cases arise from the home where people don’t wear masks anyhow.

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https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

The above link is a long read from nature, and discusses a lot of problems with mounting any “conclusive” study and why there might not ever be any conclusive work. So rather than a single study, you need to piece the results together.

But I can’t agree, we’ve seen nothing. Is there evidence that hot spots arise with the use of masks? A practical example of the converse is the event held at the White House a couple weeks ago. What are we up to? 34 people that we know of?

The last few paragraphs of the Nature article describe the frustrations of scientists.


“Several scientists say that they are excited to see the results. But others worry that such experiments are wasteful and potentially exploit a vulnerable population. “If this was a gentler pathogen, it would be great,” says Eric Topol, director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute in La Jolla, California. “You can’t do randomized trials for everything — and you shouldn’t.” As clinical researchers are sometimes fond of saying, parachutes have never been tested in a randomized controlled trial, either.
.................

For now, Osterholm, in Minnesota, wears a mask. Yet he laments the “lack of scientific rigour” that has so far been brought to the topic. “We criticize people all the time in the science world for making statements without any data,” he says. “We’re doing a lot of the same thing here.”

Nevertheless, most scientists are confident that they can say something prescriptive about wearing masks. It’s not the only solution, says Gandhi, “but I think it is a profoundly important pillar of pandemic control”. As Digard puts it: “Masks work, but they are not infallible. And, therefore, keep your distance.””
We have examples to compare, Aargau where masks are not mandatory has had for a long time now, a lower infection rate than cantons where masks are mandatory. It’s the same when comparing countries like Sweden where masks are not mandatory to Scotland where they are. We have seen no benefit in terms of the infection rate. This is the point, the evidence for the benefit of masks is weak and insufficient to enforce them as compulsory.
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  #13457  
Old 11.10.2020, 11:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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WHO official urges world leaders to stop using lockdowns as primary virus control method

"Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health."
I agree that a full lockdown certainly should not be the 'primary' method... it should be one of the last resorts to curb a serious wave of infections burning through a population and it should be flexible enough to be regional or per city.

Mandatory masks in public, continuation of social distancing and limitations on numbers of people gathering in one place should be the primary method going forward until any mass vaccines are available.
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  #13458  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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They go along the narrative supported by the very few on this forum, I have to say I am amazed they are still convinced when everything so far has showed the opposite, they simply will not give up. The whole world has given up on lock downs but the few on this forum never will.
It is remarkable how slowly it has taken for people to realise the utter folly of the approach taken to Covid management. Slowly but surely they’re coming around though (more slowly on these pages however). It’s taken 6 months for the UK press to start questioning the wisdom of government decisions such as a 10pm curfew, or closing down restaurants!

The voices against this madness were very small but are now growing. We have the Great Barrington Declaration now and you can take comfort in the knowledge history will show our view to have been right. The more data that comes in, the less dangerous this virus becomes and Switzerland is following sensible approach (apart from the masks).
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  #13459  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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I agree that a full lockdown certainly should not be the 'primary' method... it should be one of the last resorts to curb a serious wave of infections burning through a population. Mandatory masks, social distancing and reduced gatherings should be the priamry method.
Even if you or anyone else here makes their opinions clear one thousand times, V_ and TC and a few other twinned souls are gonna say you really want another lockdown as the only measure.

Writing anything on this thread in special, and probably on EF in general, is for quite some time already futile and a waste of time. They'll read whatever they want to read and comment on their their projections and assumptions.
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Old 11.10.2020, 12:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Mandatory masks in public, continuation social distancing and limitations on numers of people gathering in one place should be the primary method going forward until any mass vaccines are available.
I agree. Let's also not forget that wearing a mask is a low effort, low cost solution.
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