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  #13461  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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It is remarkable how slowly it has taken for people to realise the utter folly of the approach taken to Covid management. Slowly but surely theyíre coming around though (more slowly on these pages however). Itís taken 6 months for the UK press to start questioning the wisdom of government decisions such as a 10pm curfew, or closing down restaurants!

The voices against this madness were very small but are now growing. We have the Great Barrington Declaration now and you can take comfort in the knowledge history will show our view to have been right. The more data that comes in, the less dangerous this virus becomes and Switzerland is following sensible approach (apart from the masks).
Pull out the aluminum hats please? There is no proof that the virus is less dangerous, people are still dying or having longer term effects from the virus. Unless you state this in a couple of years, this is just speculation and not fact.
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  #13462  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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Pull out the aluminum hats please? There is no proof that the virus is less dangerous, people are still dying or having longer term effects from the virus. Unless you state this in a couple of years, this is just speculation and not fact.
Sure there is, the infection fatality rate continues to drop the more data that comes in. In the UK many of the new infection spikes are at universities from Students that donít even realise theyíre infected.
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  #13463  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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This thread was actually bearable again for a while, until Tony Clifton reappeared. I think this guy seriously just enjoys getting people to argue with him on the internet. Maybe because he's attention-starved or maybe because he's bored. Or both. I have no idea.

But I'm going to try my best from this point forward to not "feed the troll." It's a waste of time and energy.
Or maybe he's here to keep this thread and the forum rolling, sometimes it looks like we're part of a social experiment.....
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  #13464  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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We have examples to compare, Aargau where masks are not mandatory has had for a long time now, a lower infection rate than cantons where masks are mandatory. Itís the same when comparing countries like Sweden where masks are not mandatory to Scotland where they are. We have seen no benefit in terms of the infection rate. This is the point, the evidence for the benefit of masks is weak and insufficient to enforce them as compulsory.
Are these places with low infection rates as densely populated as those with higher. Are we making a fair comparison? Are the activities of people in low versus high infection rates equivalent in terms of social distancing?
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  #13465  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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Let's also not forget that wearing a mask is a low effort, low cost solution.
It is hardly a solution, just a band-aid.

Tom
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  #13466  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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Are these places with low infection rates as densely populated as those with higher. Are we making a fair comparison? Are the activities of people in low versus high infection rates equivalent in terms of social distancing?
Also so far no canton has had the courage to bring in masks as a preventative measure. Always comes AFTER the rates increase which should reduce the further increase but won't stop it.
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  #13467  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:57
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Re: Coronavirus

What happend to the one person per household in grocery shops?
Yesterday was horrid, does one really have to do the weekly family outing at the local supermarket

When I came back to Switzerland at the end of april, several shops had staff at the door making sure people had their masks on and used the provided hand sanitizer.

Then summer came, infections went down & rules were relaxed.

Now that things have changed again I wish that people would use some common sense.
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  #13468  
Old 11.10.2020, 12:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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What happend to the one person per household in grocery shops?
Yesterday was horrid, does one really have to do the weekly family outing at the local supermarket

When I came back to Switzerland at the end of april, several shops had staff at the door making sure people had their masks on and used the provided hand sanitizer.

Then summer came, infections went down & rules were relaxed.

Now that things have changed again I wish that people would use some common sense.
Our Coop still does check that, Denner never did check, but all the shops here have hand sanitizer
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  #13469  
Old 11.10.2020, 13:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sure there is, the infection fatality rate continues to drop the more data that comes in. In the UK many of the new infection spikes are at universities from Students that donít even realise theyíre infected.
I'm not sure what fatality rates are doing here now, but rates of hospitalization due to COVID are on the rise in Geneva right now.

This article is from October 9th (yesterday):

Geneva is experiencing a spike in Covid-19 hospitalisations

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/geneva-...tions/46086976

It also mentions this:

"On Friday, the Federal Office of Public Health (FOPH) said 1,487 new cases had been recorded over the previous 24 hours, 300 more than the previous day. This represents a daily record: new daily cases peaked at 1,456 on March 23."
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  #13470  
Old 11.10.2020, 13:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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What happend to the one person per household in grocery shops?
Yesterday was horrid, does one really have to do the weekly family outing at the local supermarket

When I came back to Switzerland at the end of april, several shops had staff at the door making sure people had their masks on and used the provided hand sanitizer.

Then summer came, infections went down & rules were relaxed.

Now that things have changed again I wish that people would use some common sense.
Was there a one person per household in grocery stores rule?
Iím pretty sure that never existed here.
The stores still all have hand sanitiser at the entrance and they are controlling how many people are in the store at any one time so I havenít noticed any difference to be honest.
We have mandatory masks now which we didnít have in April but thatís the only real difference.
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  #13471  
Old 11.10.2020, 13:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Our Coop still does check that, Denner never did check, but all the shops here have hand sanitizer
It is avavilable here, too. But how many actually use it?
Back in april staff made sure one used it.
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  #13472  
Old 11.10.2020, 13:12
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Re: Coronavirus

There has been such a huge spike in new cases in the past week or so. Has anyone seen anything in regards to an explanation for it? I know that beginning October 1st, large gatherings of 1,000+ people were allowed, with permission. Maybe that is why? I fear that the numbers are going to sky-rocket even more dramatically now that so many people have gone on vacation during the kids' Autumn break from school. I remember that's when the number really began to dramatically rise here last Winter -- after people had just returned from traveling during the winter break in February.

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It is hardly a solution, just a band-aid.

Tom
But something is better than nothing. When you don't yet have a solution, sometimes you have to use a 'band-aid.'
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  #13473  
Old 11.10.2020, 13:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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Was there a one person per household in grocery stores rule?
Iím pretty sure that never existed here.
Yeah, our Apotheke (pharmacy) had that rule but the grocery stores never did. I can see Sigh's point, though -- that people shouldn't be bringing their entire families into the grocery store right now. Our neighborhood Migros is very small and it's very difficult to social distance in there, especially when people have their entire families with them.
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  #13474  
Old 11.10.2020, 13:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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The article states that he also said the following:

ďThe only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, weíd rather not do it.Ē
Which is what we did here.
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Old 11.10.2020, 13:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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Was there a one person per household in grocery stores rule?
Iím pretty sure that never existed here.
The stores still all have hand sanitiser at the entrance and they are controlling how many people are in the store at any one time so I havenít noticed any difference to be honest.
We have mandatory masks now which we didnít have in April but thatís the only real difference.
During lockdown at least in my part of Vaud, sorry just took for granted it was nationwide.
Shops yesterday were packed..
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Old 11.10.2020, 13:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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During lockdown at least in my part of Vaud, sorry just took for granted it was nationwide.
Shops yesterday were packed..
I think itís a matter of common sense really but that is sadly lacking in some people.

During the Ďlockdowní back in April I always did the grocery shopping alone and at off peak times.
Now we tend to go as a couple but still at off peak times and it takes less time when itís the two of us.
I wouldnít even think of going on a Saturday, I leave that for the people who have no choice (or think going to the grocery store makes a nice family outing).

Everybody Iíve seen here sanitises their hands and basket/trolley before entering the store.
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  #13477  
Old 11.10.2020, 13:36
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Re: Coronavirus

People were becoming extremely relaxed and groups were meeting again. Even I admittedly was at a wedding and other venues of smaller groups all without mask protection. It will almost be impossible to keep younger people from meeting as it's in their literally in their genes to socialize.


We're all getting tired of stringent safety measures and would like some normalcy again. I'm afraid, however, we're heading to tighter measures again although I don't see a lockdown coming. No one wants that and most are willing to accept some risk of infection over business closures.
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  #13478  
Old 11.10.2020, 13:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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Pull out the aluminum hats please? There is no proof that the virus is less dangerous, people are still dying or having longer term effects from the virus. Unless you state this in a couple of years, this is just speculation and not fact.
The thing is, that goes for absolutely everybody Including the scientists.
So one could say, the whole world is wearing tin hats. Or - to me more likely - everybody is trying to make sense of all this, building an opinion that feels right to oneself in order to be able to live/deal with the exceptional circumstances.

We're still all in trial and error mode. As long as there is trial, I'm fine with it.

I'm also fine with hearing opinions. All of them. Some give new input, others I can dismiss as "naaa, does not sound logic to me". At the moment all this is is one big brain-storming event.
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Old 11.10.2020, 14:11
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Re: Coronavirus

I was thinking just a bit ago about how all of this has been such a learning process for our species and for our governments, etc. We have never really experienced anything like this before, in our lifetimes. And so far, it seems there has been no really easy way to deal with it.

But it would be nice to see our species pull together to get through this. It's so frustrating to see how much animosity and polarization it's caused -- stories in the news about people killing one another over having to wear a mask, etc. There are people working their asses off right now in hospitals, treating the sick, and working in labs, desperately trying to develop a successful vaccine. I guess those are the people that I have the most respect for, though all of this -- not the ones who are bitching about wearing a mask or trying to convince the world that a pandemic is no big deal.

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  #13480  
Old 11.10.2020, 14:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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There is no proof that the virus is less dangerous, people are still dying or having longer term effects from the virus. Unless you state this in a couple of years, this is just speculation and not fact.
There is, it's in the numbers and it's quite obvious. Higher infection rate and no corresponding increase in the death rate. Whether this is catching up with the real infection rate vs. spring, whether it's doctors getting better at dealing with it, whether something else is an open point. But statistically, today vs. April, the virus is less dangerous.
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