Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #13821  
Old 15.10.2020, 10:32
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ausserschwyz
Posts: 674
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,137 Times in 455 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
This is not true and never was. This was a figure from a few selected hospitals in Ticino and Geneva (if my memory serves me right), not the occupancy rate in the country, it NEVER was. In fact, the spare capacity in Switzerland was such that it started accepting patients from France and Italy.
According to the Swiss Society for Intensive Care, it was. Guess you know more than them.

https://www.medinside.ch/de/post/cor...ensivstationen
Reply With Quote
  #13822  
Old 15.10.2020, 10:34
V__ V__ is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,321
Groaned at 296 Times in 162 Posts
Thanked 1,392 Times in 659 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
This is not true and never was. This was a figure from a few selected hospitals in Ticino and Geneva (if my memory serves me right), not the occupancy rate in the country, it NEVER was. In fact, the spare capacity in Switzerland was such that it started accepting patients from France and Italy.
And not only that certain hospitals were reducing the hours of medical staff because anything non-covid was simply not treated. So they were going on partial unemployment and getting pay cuts.

Meanwhile:

LONDON (Reuters) - An extra 10,000 children per month may die this year from malnutrition due to the COVID-19 crisis, the head of the World Health Organisation warned on Wednesday.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank V__ for this useful post:
  #13823  
Old 15.10.2020, 10:39
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 816
Groaned at 280 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 889 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
According to the Swiss Society for Intensive Care, it was. Guess you know more than them.

https://www.medinside.ch/de/post/cor...ensivstationen
I don't think this is of too much concern.

Quote:
Zum Vergleich: Die Bettenbelegung einer Intensivstation beträgt im Jahresdurchschnitt etwa 75 Prozent.
Average occupancy of ICU beds is 75% in Switzerland which shows a well managed system. When 98% occupancy was recorded, only 48% were Covid patients.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #13824  
Old 15.10.2020, 10:40
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 905
Groaned at 144 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 2,232 Times in 850 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
According to the Swiss Society for Intensive Care, it was. Guess you know more than them.

https://www.medinside.ch/de/post/cor...ensivstationen
Something's really wrong in this article.

"Additional bed capacities created were not taken into account in the evaluation..."

Most importantly and most probably precisely due to the additional bed capacities not taken into consideration:

"Trotz der vorübergehend stark erhöhten Belegung der Intensivstationen waren die gesamtschweizerischen Kapazitäten der Intensivmedizin «bisher zu jedem Zeitpunkt zur Behandlung aller kritisch kranken Patientinnen und Patienten ausreichend"

or a rough translation "we always had sufficient capacity to treat all patients"
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #13825  
Old 15.10.2020, 10:40
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ausserschwyz
Posts: 674
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,137 Times in 455 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
And not only that certain hospitals were reducing the hours of medical staff because anything non-covid was simply not treated. So they were going on partial unemployment and getting pay cuts.

[/B][/URL]
Correct. The peaks in hospitals was apparently reached in early April as a function of the "lock-down". After that, the curve had been significantly flattened, but hospitals were still for quite a while not able to perform "non-essential" treatments.

I would assume that also there will be learning to handle this more flexibly in a new phase, i.e. operating under normal conditions as much as possible and then postponing treatments if capacity gets tight.

How did you manage to make all the right decisions in your first pandemic?
Reply With Quote
  #13826  
Old 15.10.2020, 10:42
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Zürich
Posts: 213
Groaned at 19 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 210 Times in 113 Posts
vladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
That particularly story was important because it involved someone that got infected despite being "immune" as the virus varients have mutated so far from each other.

It has been said almost from the start that any immunity to Covid is likely to be short-term, thus questioning your darling herd immunity target. This is now basically established fact - in Switzerland alone, BAG yesterday reported multiple (no, not just one) re-infections.

The good news is that most of the main vaccine projets have assumed this would occur and their solutions are designed to get around this.

BTW Russia currently has more cases and deaths than ever before.
immunity is short-term, but vaccine (which just teach immune system) will workaround this. brilliant
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank vladest for this useful post:
  #13827  
Old 15.10.2020, 10:50
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ausserschwyz
Posts: 674
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,137 Times in 455 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Something's really wrong in this article.

"Additional bed capacities created were not taken into account in the evaluation..."

Most importantly and most probably precisely due to the additional bed capacities not taken into consideration:

"Trotz der vorübergehend stark erhöhten Belegung der Intensivstationen waren die gesamtschweizerischen Kapazitäten der Intensivmedizin «bisher zu jedem Zeitpunkt zur Behandlung aller kritisch kranken Patientinnen und Patienten ausreichend"

or a rough translation "we always had sufficient capacity to treat all patients"
OK, that is a fair criticism, and apparently a topic also then. Apologies for not being careful.

https://www.medinside.ch/de/post/sta...uer-verwirrung

So the picture shows that without additional capacities, the system would have been close to the limit in early April despite lock-down, and I leave it up for anyone to guess how it would have looked without a lock-down.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #13828  
Old 15.10.2020, 10:57
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 816
Groaned at 280 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 889 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
And not only that certain hospitals were reducing the hours of medical staff because anything non-covid was simply not treated. So they were going on partial unemployment and getting pay cuts.

Meanwhile:

LONDON (Reuters) - An extra 10,000 children per month may die this year from malnutrition due to the COVID-19 crisis, the head of the World Health Organisation warned on Wednesday.
It's stats like this that make the accusations of "heartlessness" or being "psychopathic" all the more insulting to people on the sceptical side of the argument.

Cancer rates have sky rocketed, so has heart disease, loneliness, poverty, misery, suicides, domestic violence, weddings and funerals ruined, educations destroyed, couples kept apart, the elderly kept as prisoners in care homes, unemployment rising, mental illness too. And we're supposed to be the heartless ones?!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #13829  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:00
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,361
Groaned at 128 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 7,258 Times in 2,761 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
This has been a conundrum for me too. Now in retrospect I would speculate it was a "perfect storm". In the very beginning, the media completely blew it out of proportion, which shifted public opinion instantly and it turned into a panic-mode all over. Then elected politicians had to show activity and started outdoing each other with more and more extreme measures to show to their voters that they care and they have a plan and they have things under control. The WHO and the media were then just adding more oxygen to the fire by publishing more and more alarmism and all of a sudden we were under a lockdown and then people started to think a bit more and gradually started to realize it something to take care of, but nowhere near the biblical apocalypse that was initially assumed. If you want a good laugh, just go back to the middle of this thread and read, weep, read and weep.
Have you read the book "The Wave" (or seen the movie)?

From day 1, I was somehow reminded of that. Someone does something, everyone does the same, soon enough no one knows why, and it's all spiraled out of control. And it's significantly harder to come back from that than to just take a reasonable approach from the get-go - or at least after like 2 weeks. I've occasionally taken screenshots of media headlines and looking back, it's honestly ludicrous

Quote:
View Post
I'm absolutely positive that the leaders of Russia, China, Turkey and a bunch of other autocrats have been diligently taking notes of the ways public opinion in the democratic world has been shaped and they will come sooner rather than later with something else.
Pains me to be all "conspiracy", but I'm in agreement and believe some version of this is definitely going on.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #13830  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:06
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 8,852
Groaned at 270 Times in 217 Posts
Thanked 18,192 Times in 7,314 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
It's stats like this that make the accusations of "heartlessness" or being "psychopathic" all the more insulting to people on the sceptical side of the argument.

Cancer rates have sky rocketed, so has heart disease, loneliness, poverty, misery, suicides, domestic violence, weddings and funerals ruined, educations destroyed, couples kept apart, the elderly kept as prisoners in care homes, unemployment rising, mental illness too. And we're supposed to be the heartless ones?!
Really? Proof of all that, please? Tat's a lot of things that allegedly went out of control during the couple of months or so that Switzerland had a not-really-lockdown. I'm particularly interested in learning how the short lockdown produced increased numbers of cancer cases. Was windmill noise cancer one of the primary problems?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #13831  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:08
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 4,075
Groaned at 155 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 7,109 Times in 3,263 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
immunity is short-term, but vaccine (which just teach immune system) will workaround this. brilliant
Try doing a little reading and you might understand. Although please note I wrote "designed to" which is certainly no guarantee of success.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at baboon for this post:
  #13832  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:09
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 816
Groaned at 280 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 889 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Really? Proof of all that, please? Tat's a lot of things that allegedly went out of control during the couple of months or so that Switzerland had a not-really-lockdown. I'm particularly interested in learning how the short lockdown produced increased numbers of cancer cases. Was windmill noise cancer one of the primary problems?
I'm talking generally, not regarding Switzerland. I've consistently said that I've been happy with the Swiss response (other than the masks). Let's hope they hold their nerve in today's meeting. Especially the glorious Canton of Aargau!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #13833  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:10
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,509
Groaned at 979 Times in 688 Posts
Thanked 17,516 Times in 6,865 Posts
Chuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
It's stats like this that make the accusations of "heartlessness" or being "psychopathic" all the more insulting to people on the sceptical side of the argument.

Cancer rates have sky rocketed, so has heart disease, loneliness, poverty, misery, suicides, domestic violence, weddings and funerals ruined, educations destroyed, couples kept apart, the elderly kept as prisoners in care homes, unemployment rising, mental illness too. And we're supposed to be the heartless ones?!
If you don't want to be labelled as psychopathic, then don't write how the otherwise healthy over-80's should sacrifice themselves for the good of society as they have already lived full lives. It is a clear sign that a person lacks basic human empathy and compassion and that defines psychopathy.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Chuff for this useful post:
The following 4 users groan at Chuff for this post:
  #13834  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:15
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 816
Groaned at 280 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 889 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
If you don't want to be labelled as psychopathic, then don't write how the otherwise healthy over-80's should sacrifice themselves for the good of society as they have already lived full lives. It is a clear sign that a person lacks basic human empathy and compassion and that defines psychopathy.
I have NEVER said that old people be sacrificed, you just interpreted it that way. I said that it is normal for people to die when they reach their eighties as it corresponds with life expectancy.

This is where I agree so much with the Great Barrington Declaration. That the vulnerable should be protected and sheltered if they so wish. Keeping the elderly prisoners in their own home against with the sole purpose of keeping them alive without allowing them to live is one of least compassionate things imaginable.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #13835  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:19
V__ V__ is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,321
Groaned at 296 Times in 162 Posts
Thanked 1,392 Times in 659 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
If you don't want to be labelled as psychopathic, then don't write how the otherwise healthy over-80's should sacrifice themselves for the good of society as they have already lived full lives. It is a clear sign that a person lacks basic human empathy and compassion and that defines psychopathy.
Sure, let's spare the 80+ years old and kill everybody else! Good strategy!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank V__ for this useful post:
  #13836  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:19
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,361
Groaned at 128 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 7,258 Times in 2,761 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
If you don't want to be labelled as psychopathic, then don't write how the otherwise healthy over-80's should sacrifice themselves for the good of society as they have already lived full lives. It is a clear sign that a person lacks basic human empathy and compassion and that defines psychopathy.
Ah geeeez we're back to this line of "argument"?

It's allowed to die after the age of 80 btw. It's actually really quite likely that people will die after the age of 80. Generally healthy or not.

This polarized black and white crap is really getting insane. It's ridiculous to insinuate that this is a question about "directly and only sacrificing the old" (or the opposite for that matter, i.e. "sacrificing the young"). But it's an undisputed fact that sacrifices of varying significance are being made by everyone even though it's not a threat or risk for 98%+ of the world. It's not exactly the plague.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #13837  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 7,900
Groaned at 285 Times in 214 Posts
Thanked 17,669 Times in 6,208 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
If you don't want to be labelled as psychopathic, then don't write how the otherwise healthy over-80's should sacrifice themselves for the good of society as they have already lived full lives. It is a clear sign that a person lacks basic human empathy and compassion and that defines psychopathy.

What a crazy post.
Reply With Quote
The following 12 users would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #13838  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:24
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 15,004
Groaned at 474 Times in 379 Posts
Thanked 21,372 Times in 8,767 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post

Cancer rates have sky rocketed, so has heart disease, loneliness, poverty, misery, suicides, domestic violence, weddings and funerals ruined, educations destroyed, couples kept apart, the elderly kept as prisoners in care homes, unemployment rising, mental illness too. And we're supposed to be the heartless ones?!
Despite pretending to have altruistic motives for ending or reducing COVID-19 controls in this post of yours, the fact remains that most of your posts appear to have an entirely self-centred, selfish reason for ending controls.

For example, how does wearing a mask affect the economy or general living:

Quote:
View Post
I'm talking generally, not regarding Switzerland. I've consistently said that I've been happy with the Swiss response (other than the masks). Let's hope they hold their nerve in today's meeting. Especially the glorious Canton of Aargau!
Yes, we get you don't like wearing one. My kids don't like to put on a rain coat when it's raining.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #13839  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:24
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,509
Groaned at 979 Times in 688 Posts
Thanked 17,516 Times in 6,865 Posts
Chuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Ah geeeez we're back to this line of "argument"?

It's allowed to die after the age of 80 btw. It's actually really quite likely that people will die after the age of 80. Generally healthy or not.
So because it's statistically likely that someone over 80 will die naturally within a few years... lets let them die of COVID anyway, alone and in agony, without doing everything we can for them?

Yeah, how ridiculously "black and white" that is.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Chuff for this useful post:
  #13840  
Old 15.10.2020, 11:34
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,361
Groaned at 128 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 7,258 Times in 2,761 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
So because it's statistically likely that someone over 80 will die naturally within a few years... lets let them die of COVID anyway, alone and in agony, without doing everything we can for them?

Yeah, how ridiculously "black and white" that is.
My God you really don't get it. We've been doing an insane amount, a ridiculous-over-the-top-never-seen amount of things to "protect them" (even if they never asked for that protection and many instead died - from this or something else - alone without their loved ones - fab job).

We have bankrupted the world, sacrificed half a generation's future, created massive polarization and division as well as social and political unrest, robbed children and the young from education and socialization, created massive health issues down the line, increased poverty and marginalization etc. etc. etc.

How much more do you feel needs to be done to protect those that never asked to be protected?

This never ever was primarily about protection. It was about health systems that were understaffed, underequipped and unprepared to deal with any unusual influx of patients, no matter the cause of that influx, and mostly that was and is a consequence of political and economic mismanagement over years and decades.

And instead of shifting analysis towards systemic issues and, you know, actually resolving them, we are creating something that is a hundred times worse and insist on some hysterical narrative that isn't advancing anything. What do you think will be the consequences of this massive debt that has been created and virtual bankruptcies of entire countries? Oh right, austerity programs and guess where that will be reflected, among many other things - ah yeah, savings in healthcare.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at Samaire13 for this post:
Reply

Tags
cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 38 (2 members and 36 guests)
BKinTheHouse
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0