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Old 15.10.2020, 12:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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Good for your kids that they have access to a computer, Wifi and probably their own room. Also good for people like me as I'm lucky enough to have a job that I can easily do from home even if it comes with its own challenges.

That is not the reality for the massive majority of even Western countries, let alone the world at large.

It's precisely this narrow-mindedness of us rich folks in cushy situations that is the problem.
UK computer ownership is above 88%. Not the wealthiest country but seems to be a very high penetration to me. Few European countries are below 80% and almost none below 70%. Plus you can add tablets and smartphones to that.

So it is the reality for Europe.
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  #13882  
Old 15.10.2020, 12:51
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Re: Coronavirus

I thought N95 masks were no good for the general public, because they allow your exhaled air to escape unfiltered. So they only protect the wearer. I know some airlines don’t allow them.
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  #13883  
Old 15.10.2020, 12:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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It also leads on to something that I find deeply uncomfortable with lockdown measures, the middle classes and white collar types get to shelter whilst the working classes bring them things and take all the risk.
Partially. But those at highest risk are medical and are white collar types.
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  #13884  
Old 15.10.2020, 12:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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UK computer ownership is above 88%. Not the wealthiest country but seems to be a very high penetration to me. Few European countries are below 80% and almost none below 70%. Plus you can add tablets and smartphones to that.

So it is the reality for Europe.

Except you can't just pawn kids to technology and leave them to fend for themselves. If they are 14, they will. But even them not the entire learning day, even the lockdown short version. Younger kids need servise people. So to think that a random country is academically doing great because there is x amount of leisure gadgets...doesn't really justify the existence of the school system. I think 2-3 wks is ok, but then we lose a lot of them young ones or those who need more personal approach.
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Old 15.10.2020, 13:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Partially. But those at highest risk are medical and are white collar types.
The two most infected job groups now in Czech rep. are doctors/nurses and teachers.
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Old 15.10.2020, 14:12
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Re: Coronavirus

The press conference from earlier today from the bundesrat: additional measures, such as local lockdowns, are in the hand of cantons. https://www.20min.ch/story/was-sagt-...n-276065545009

One of the questions from the journalists (on Monday Oct 12, not today) was about fines for not wearing masks on required places (i.e. public transport). A simple yet frustrating answer from Mr. Alain Berset: it's not on the covid law legislated earlier this year.

Last edited by Axa; 15.10.2020 at 14:36. Reason: the question about the fines for masks was done on Monday 12 Oct, not today
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Old 15.10.2020, 14:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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In an ideal would like a full peer review study that proves the efficacy of masks when under general use by entire populations. Is that better?
There is a study out there like that using Singapore as an example with very high general population mask usage, but I can't find it again
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Old 15.10.2020, 14:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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One of the questions from the journalists was about fines for not wearing masks on required places (i.e. public transport). A simple yet frustrating answer from Mr. Alain Berset: it's not on the covid law legislated earlier this year.
What a clown Herr Berset and politicians in general. How about having conductors who throw non mask wearers off the bus? Would that require him running to his earlier legislation too? Journalists should ask more follow-up questions!
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  #13889  
Old 15.10.2020, 14:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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There is a study out there like that using Singapore as an example with very high general population mask usage, but I can't find it again
Is it this one you mean?

https://spj.sciencemag.org/journals/.../2020/7286735/
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Old 15.10.2020, 14:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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What a clown Herr Berset and politicians in general. How about having conductors who throw non mask wearers off the bus? Would that require him running to his earlier legislation too? Journalists should ask more follow-up questions!
AFAIK that isn't true - the law has a section allowing fines to be stipulated:

Art. 18 Criminal provisions
1 A fine will be imposed on anyone who willfully violates the measures ordered by the Federal Council based on Article 3 or 4 and whose violation it declares to be punishable based on this provision.

2 The Federal Council may stipulate that certain offenses under paragraph 1 are to be punished by fines of a maximum of 300 francs, and it determines the amount of the fine.
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  #13891  
Old 15.10.2020, 14:46
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Re: Coronavirus

Siemens Healthineers Launches Rapid Antigen Test for the Detection of SARS-CoV-2
https://www.siemens-healthineers.com...tigentest.html

hmm: Not for publication in the USA
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  #13892  
Old 15.10.2020, 14:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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AFAIK that isn't true - the law has a section allowing fines to be stipulated:
If what you are saying is true then the journalist and Herr Berset are even more incompetent? Anyway fines are useless if no one enforces those rules.
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  #13893  
Old 15.10.2020, 14:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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What a clown Herr Berset and politicians in general. How about having conductors who throw non mask wearers off the bus? Would that require him running to his earlier legislation too? Journalists should ask more follow-up questions!
The answer from Mr. Berset:

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Sollte es Bussen geben, wenn man die Maskenpflicht nicht einhält?

«Das ist eine schwierige Frage», so Berset. Generell sei es momentan nicht möglich, Ordnungsbussen für Maskenverweigerer zu verteilen. «Dafür fehlt seit dem Ende der besonderen Lage die gesetzliche Grundlage, da das Parlament das nicht ins Covid-Gesetz geschrieben hat.»
Well, it's the division of powers. The bundesrat, where Mr. Berset is 1/7 is the executive power in charge of applying existing laws. Die Bundesversammlung in building with the green dome in Bern are the ones in charge of making new laws. Decisions are slower in democracies compared to dictatorships, but....democracies are the lesser evil in the long term.
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Old 15.10.2020, 14:53
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Re: Coronavirus

No it was a pre-coronavirus paper on transmission of infectious diseases like flu and SARS using Singapore and (I think) Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur) as mask wearing / non-wearing examples. I found several similar but can't find any of them now.

The general result was that it made a significant difference to the R-value at "normal" levels of infection, but became less effective when the rate was higher.

Their analysis was something like this:

* masks are fairly effective at stopping viral particles spreading
* infection is not linear with number of viral particles (below a certain level a person tends to fight them without getting infected)
* at a low number of cases, masks reduce the spreading viral particles below the level for infection
* if there are more cases, the number of viral particles being spread gets too high even with masks
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  #13895  
Old 15.10.2020, 15:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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I thought N95 masks were no good for the general public, because they allow your exhaled air to escape unfiltered. So they only protect the wearer. I know some airlines don’t allow them.
You can get them with and without a valve.
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Old 15.10.2020, 15:53
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Re: Coronavirus

The chair of Czech chamber of doctors has asked all Czech doctors practicing medicine abroad to come back home, at least temporarily.
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Old 15.10.2020, 16:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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The chair of Czech chamber of doctors has asked all Czech doctors practicing medicine abroad to come back home, at least temporarily.
That’s interesting. Am fascinated by the response to this. Are these doctors supposed to give up their lives and livelihoods to practice voluntarily?
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Old 15.10.2020, 16:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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That’s interesting. Am fascinated by the response to this. Are these doctors supposed to give up their lives and livelihoods to practice voluntarily?
In all honesty, I wish it could be done at home too because that would solve a lot of issues, but that would mean they'd have to dump their patients (and of course their entire livelihoods and families) where they currently reside. A system that for one reason or another could not keep them, should not ask now such things from anyone IMO.
And I'm speaking for my country at least, should ask itself "What can we do from now on so that doctors and nurses won't leave in waves?". Too late for such questions, now they have to manage with what they have.
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Old 15.10.2020, 16:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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In all honesty, I wish it could be done at home too because that would solve a lot of issues, but that would mean they'd have to dump their patients (and of course their entire livelihoods and families) where they currently reside. A system that for one reason or another could not keep them, should not ask now such things from anyone IMO.
And I'm speaking for my country at least, should ask itself "What can we do from now on so that doctors and nurses won't leave in waves?". Too late for such questions, now they have to manage with what they have.

Yes, I agree. It's a bit strange if a doctor considers her/his patriotic feelings to be more important than the patients.
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Old 15.10.2020, 17:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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The chair of Czech chamber of doctors has asked all Czech doctors practicing medicine abroad to come back home, at least temporarily.
ay, complicate issue.

Thinking about some type of universal justice and solidarity to all humans, shows concern for others. Patriotism also shows concern for others, a special concern for compatriots over the rest of humans. I'd say there's nothing morally wrong as long as doctors keep helping people they're free to decide who and where they want to help.

I think this is more or less the present case. Doctors who believe in impartiality already work for the Red Cross and Doctor without Borders. Doctors with a sense of patriotism may prefer to stay at home. Between those extremes there should be a majority that has never stopped to think about the issue because favorable circumstances (no war, no epidemics) don't force them to.

It would be interesting to know what someone working for Doctors without Borders feels today? My guess is they left home believing someone else could help family, friends and loved ones in case of need. If that's not the case due to the health system being overrun by the epidemic, what's the moral thing to do? The Red Cross has an easy answer: help the ones who need it more. But that leads to another question: who needs the help more?
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