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  #14181  
Old 18.10.2020, 18:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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Very weak and I would even dare to say cowardly statements from Bundesrat.


They know perfectly well that trainwreck is coming but are unwilling to take responsibility / issue proper rules because they will need to support businesses that will come into troubles financially and for this "there is no money" which is a total BS, if any country in the world has money to help it's citizens / small business then it is Switzerland.
Money has been burnt at an astonishing rate, with very littles to show for it. The cost of the carrying trade has long exceeded any possible benefit, governments realise this. I can be sure they don't have the balls to to say it out loud as they would be lambasted by the lefties.
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  #14182  
Old 18.10.2020, 19:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Not really. Once they pass the non existent security, they will just pull the mask down to expose their nostrils.

If on the other hand there was an on the spot fine, people would follow the rules better.
Fines for not wearing a mask have been in force since early September that I know of. From today's update...

'Masks are compulsory at all times, no matter how many people are travelling. If you refuse to wear a mask on public transport, you may be asked by the transport staff to get off at the next stop. If you refuse to do so, you may receive a fine.'

Does this extend to all places where they've been made compulsory?
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  #14183  
Old 18.10.2020, 19:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Money has been burnt at an astonishing rate, with very littles to show for it. The cost of the carrying trade has long exceeded any possible benefit, governments realise this. I can be sure they don't have the balls to to say it out loud as they would be lambasted by the lefties.
We will see how this develops. I agree with the approach of not forcing businesses to close now, but if the situation gets worse businesses will suffers regardless and more govt (uh, taxpayer) support might be required. Kurzarbeit has already been extended from 12 to 18 months. Kurzarbeit has allegedly so far cost 7.7 bn.
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  #14184  
Old 18.10.2020, 19:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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'Masks are compulsory at all times, no matter how many people are travelling. If you refuse to wear a mask on public transport, you may be asked by the transport staff to get off at the next stop. If you refuse to do so, you may receive a fine.'
This seems to tie in with mask rules being part of the condition of carriage.

Step 1 - you invalidated your ticket by not wearing a mask, so are asked to get off.

Step 2 - if you don't, you are travelling without a ticket so get a fine.

Ticket inspectors can't enforce laws, but they can enforce ticket rules.
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  #14185  
Old 18.10.2020, 19:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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This seems to tie in with mask rules being part of the condition of carriage.

Step 1 - you invalidated your ticket by not wearing a mask, so are asked to get off.

Step 2 - if you don't, you are travelling without a ticket so get a fine.

Ticket inspectors can't enforce laws, but they can enforce ticket rules.
And don't underestimate the social shaming component in enforcing this. Just been at a gas station shop here in Ausserschwyz, 100% mask compliance although the new rules technically do not apply until tomorrow.

Actually, not true: the clerk did not wear a mask behind her mighty plexiglass shield
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Old 18.10.2020, 19:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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From yesterday in Malta you need to wear a mask outside your house, unless doing sport, although not legally enforceable for another week.
God forbid you should actually do something for your immune system and breathe in, you know, fresh air. Most idiotic thing among a sea of idiotic things.

Meanwhile, mortality for healthy below-70s is estimated at 0.05%, with an overall mortality of 0.25% across all age groups. Peer-reviewed, serological study. WHO. https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_....20.265892.pdf

And more and more doctors are speaking up against significant measures. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...d-19-1.9237918 or https://nzzas.nzz.ch/schweiz/zweite-...ann-ld.1582278
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  #14187  
Old 18.10.2020, 20:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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God forbid you should actually do something for your immune system and breathe in, you know, fresh air. Most idiotic thing among a sea of idiotic things.

Meanwhile, mortality for healthy below-70s is estimated at 0.05%, with an overall mortality of 0.25% across all age groups. Peer-reviewed, serological study. WHO. https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_....20.265892.pdf

And more and more doctors are speaking up against significant measures. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...d-19-1.9237918 or https://nzzas.nzz.ch/schweiz/zweite-...ann-ld.1582278
Metastudy of 89 studies: "Our meta-analysis indicates that COVID-19 poses a low risk for children and younger adults but is hazardous for middle-aged adults and extremely dangerous for older adults."



So it all depends on the age distribution of a community. Above 70, one might say that there roughly is a 15% infection fatality rate.
This is Russian Roulette, literally. Tell me you (or your parents) would play?
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  #14188  
Old 18.10.2020, 20:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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So it all depends on the age distribution of a community. Above 70, one might say that there roughly is a 15% infection fatality rate. This is Russian Roulette, literally. Tell me you (or your parents) would play?

Correct. And this is not some theory, we have seen it all in northern Italy this spring and it will hit us this winter as well. Let's also not forget long term effects / consequences even in young adults.

Another thing I personally feel uneasy about is birth of children conceived during pandemics some quite nasty surprises might await us there as well.
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  #14189  
Old 18.10.2020, 20:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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Metastudy of 89 studies: "Our meta-analysis indicates that COVID-19 poses a low risk for children and younger adults but is hazardous for middle-aged adults and extremely dangerous for older adults."



So it all depends on the age distribution of a community. Above 70, one might say that there roughly is a 15% infection fatality rate.
This is Russian Roulette, literally. Tell me you (or your parents) would play?
It's not Russian Roulette. Protect the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions. Let the rest go about things as always. This had been the point made by MANY all along.

As was quote early on: it's like an elephant attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off the cliff and dies.

This has been and continues to be spot on. The elephant has died. Too bad the cat is still alive.

As far as my parents are concerned: don't you worry, they, along with literally all their friends, have always and continue to be not worried, claiming they got to die from something, and are instead horrified by the damage that's being done indirectly to them and everyone else. My mom - a former nurse - did indeed land in the hospital - because of stress-induced symptoms of a heart attack (it wasn't one). Stress because she is worried about what this will do to her son and his wife who are expecting a child but work in a sector that is heavily affected by these OTT measures and therefore likely to lose their jobs, stress about her friends who were in old-age homes and - at over 90 - died alone in May as no visitors were allowed, stress about her friends who during lockdown were yelled at by some random person for daring to go for a walk, stress because her godfather who is 101 years old has not seen his kids in months as they're too paranoid to visit him and he will die alone as well, stress about being marginalized as an "old person and therefore by default a problem".
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  #14190  
Old 18.10.2020, 20:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's not Russian Roulette. Protect the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions. Let the rest go about things as always. This had been the point made by MANY all along.
How is that practically possible?
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Old 18.10.2020, 20:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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How is that practically possible?
By the same measures used to "protect everyone" of course. I thought social distancing and wearing masks were working beautifully?
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Old 18.10.2020, 20:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's not Russian Roulette. Protect the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions. Let the rest go about things as always. This had been the point made by MANY all along.
I've said it at least 3 times in this thread and I'll say it again. Protect them how?

The "vulnerable" don't live in bubbles and completely independently. They need assistance from the "healthy" folks. Should we start legislating that certain professions can only go to work and home and nowhere else, but everyone else can go to concerts, travel the world, and have a beer with the mates?

That's where this simplified type of thinking starts to lead. If you work with vulnerable folks, well no fun for you because they need protection. But if you work in an office, have a ball and fill your boots!
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Old 18.10.2020, 20:53
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Re: Coronavirus

See above.

And since ruining everyone (even more) to protect the very few is obviously not a strategy for even the near term, what would all your suggestion be then? I guess you must have an idea for the perfect course of action and I'm sure the world would love to hear it.
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Old 18.10.2020, 20:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's not Russian Roulette. Protect the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions. Let the rest go about things as always. This had been the point made by MANY all along.
This has been attempted many times and it does not work! Elderly where locked up in jail like conditions and still Corona has been running rampant through the elderly homes.

Our society cannot be segregated like that, especially not with the virus as insidious as Corona.

Actual recipe is simple: Cease all non essential activities (Bars, Clubs, Restaurants, Concerts, Party with friends), work from home where possible, follow rules on hygiene (yes, masks too), and think about other people and not just about yourself.


This cannot be that difficult, it's not humanity's first rodeo.
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Old 18.10.2020, 20:55
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Re: Coronavirus

So if it's impossible to protect only the vulnerable, how can we expect to be feasible to protect everybody else?
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Old 18.10.2020, 20:59
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This has been attempted many times and it does not work! Elderly where locked up in jail like conditions and still Corona has been running rampant through the elderly homes.

Our society cannot be segregated like that, especially not with the virus as insidious as Corona.

Actual recipe is simple: Cease all non essential activities (Bars, Clubs, Restaurants, Concerts, Party with friends), follow rules on hygiene (yes, masks too), and think about other people and not just about your own joy and satisfaction.
Then why are we all running around with masks and facing various levels of restrictions?

The proposal above is obviously no option seeing that millions and millions and millions of jobs depend on those industries. No jobs = no income = no taxes = reduced social welfare including healthcare and a shitload of other consequences.
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Old 18.10.2020, 20:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've said it at least 3 times in this thread and I'll say it again. Protect them how?

The "vulnerable" don't live in bubbles and completely independently. They need assistance from the "healthy" folks. Should we start legislating that certain professions can only go to work and home and nowhere else, but everyone else can go to concerts, travel the world, and have a beer with the mates?

That's where this simplified type of thinking starts to lead. If you work with vulnerable folks, well no fun for you because they need protection. But if you work in an office, have a ball and fill your boots!
rapid test for such kind of workers. often
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Old 18.10.2020, 21:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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See above.

And since ruining everyone (even more) to protect the very few is obviously not a strategy for even the near term, what would all your suggestion be then? I guess you must have an idea for the perfect course of action and I'm sure the world would love to hear it.
I never said I had an idea on the how.

I've repeatedly asked those with the over-simplified mantra of "protect the elderly and let the rest of us get on with our lives" to offer their suggestions on how exactly we make such a thing work.

If it's that easy to just do it, let's hear how to do it. I'm all ears. I want my life back to normal too!

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So if it's impossible to protect only the vulnerable, how can we expect to be feasible to protect everybody else?
You got me, that's the gazillion dollar question for the whole planet.
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Old 18.10.2020, 21:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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Actual recipe is simple: Cease all non essential activities (Bars, Clubs, Restaurants, Concerts, Party with friends), work from home where possible, follow rules on hygiene (yes, masks too), and think about other people and not just about yourself.


This cannot be that difficult, it's not humanity's first rodeo.
and this will lasts forever, since virus will not gone
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Old 18.10.2020, 21:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Then why are we all running around with masks and facing various levels of restrictions?

The proposal above is obviously no option seeing that millions and millions and millions of jobs depend on those industries. No jobs = no income = no taxes = reduced social welfare including healthcare and a shitload of other consequences.
Why do we even have to set restrictions? Why can't arrogant and selfish people think farther then their own nose?
Oh how terrible, poor you have to wear a mask and face "restrictions", this is just pathetic. You want restrictions? Think about what our grandparents had to live through during 5 years of WW2 and just stop whining about not being able to visit Bar in the evening.


As of millions and millions of jobs hanging on Bar / Restaurant and Entertainment industry: this is simply BS, first of all those are not "millions and millions", second this is not forever and third we are one of the freaking richest nations of the world. We CAN support those people, where is the will there is a way.
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