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Old 22.10.2020, 10:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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The difference being that washing hands is undeniably low cost AND WORKS, whilst face masks is of unknown cost, unknown impact, and very likely doesn't work.

Even if you're right, the only impact is that it will cost us a small amount of money and that facemask producers have a great year.
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  #14502  
Old 22.10.2020, 10:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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The difference being that washing hands is undeniably low cost AND WORKS, whilst face masks is of unknown cost, unknown impact, and very likely doesn't work.
Except that 80% to 90% of infections are droplet or aerosol. Hand/surface contact is now believed to be a relatively minor route.

From the CDC:

Quote:
The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory droplets carrying infectious virus.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ars-cov-2.html

Doesn't mean you shouldn't wash hands. But it's only a minor factor in preventing Covid infection.

Last edited by baboon; 22.10.2020 at 10:20.
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  #14503  
Old 22.10.2020, 10:26
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Re: Coronavirus

What's the word on aerosols and efficiency of surgical masks that are requested in education/schools and medical environment here?
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Old 22.10.2020, 11:05
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Re: Coronavirus

Instead of endless arguments about numbers, may it is better to think about long term strategies:
This from 2019 ;
"Pneumonia does not have an effective advocacy
strategy. It is not the subject of fund-raising walks or runs.
It does not have a ribbon or other symbol around which
people rally. It does not get the attention it needs from
biomedical scientists or from research funders. More effort
is needed now."

from

https://www.thoracic.org/patients/pa...onia-facts.pdf
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  #14505  
Old 22.10.2020, 11:08
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Re: Coronavirus

That paper doesn’t say you have a greater chance of catching it if you are group A, it says that the risks of respiratory complications are greater in blood group A patients.

It is also a pre-print, non peer reviewed article.
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  #14506  
Old 22.10.2020, 11:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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The difference being that washing hands is undeniably low cost AND WORKS, whilst face masks is of unknown cost, unknown impact, and very likely doesn't work.

Unknown cost and unknown impact? 20 rappen a piece. I've used a full face helmet + googles for hundreds of hours while riding my bike, not that far from wearing a mask. Below -10 I wear a mask while skiing. Maybe I became dumb for breathing all that CO2. Probably my IQ is <80 after several years of scuba diving
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  #14507  
Old 22.10.2020, 11:56
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Re: Coronavirus

David Staples: Lockdowns will cause 10 times more harm to human health than COVID-19 itself, says infectious disease expert

The harm caused by lockdowns is much worse than the disease of COVID-19. That’s the argument from numerous public health officials and economists around the world, including an Alberta expert in infectious disease and critical care, Dr. Ari Joffe of the Stollery Children’s Hospital and the University of Alberta.
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  #14508  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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Please provide some numerical detail about the cases in mask skeptical areas vs more mask friendly areas.
Just take a look at the number of deaths per head of population in the US states.

Most deaths per capita:

1) New Jersey
2) New York
3) Massachusetts
4) Connecticut

Some of the bottom ones are some of the strongest Trump states.

44) West Virginia
45) Utah
49) Wyoming
50) Alaska

Obviously there's a few outliers, but the trend is clearly positive between democratic support (which i'm assuming correlates quite highly with support for mask wearing) and more covid deaths. Even in red states, the deaths are concentrated in the blue urban areas.

Now, I'm not saying that masks don't work - but to me that suggests that they don't work all that well and that there is no substitute for social distancing (evidently helped by Trump states higher rurality).

I bet you could find that SVP support of a canton (and even more so for each geminde) here correlates negatively with COVID death rate (low deaths in conservative German speaking cantons). Same with UK and conservative party support. To me that suggests that mask wearing isn't an adequate remedy to overcome a lack of social distancing.

The take home for me over this dangerous second wave is social distance, irrespective of whether you are wearing a mask. Obviously when you have to go into a supermarket wear a mask.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 22.10.2020 at 12:18.
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  #14509  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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The difference being that washing hands is undeniably low cost AND WORKS, whilst face masks is of unknown cost, unknown impact, and very likely doesn't work.
Here is a link to a scientific study concluding masks are beneficial, do you have a link to contrary evidence?
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  #14510  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just take a look at the number of deaths per head of population in the US states.

Most deaths per capita:

1) New Jersey
2) New York
3) Massachusetts
4) Connecticut

Some of the bottom ones are some of the strongest Trump states.

44) West Virginia
45) Utah
49) Wyoming
50) Alaska

Obviously there's a few outliers, but the trend is clearly positive between democratic support (which i'm assuming correlates quite highly with support for mask wearing) and more covid deaths.

Now, I'm not saying that masks don't work - but to me that suggests that they don't work that well and that there is no substitute for social distancing (evidently helped by Trump states higher rurality).

I bet you could find that SVP support of a canton here correlates negatively with COVID death rate (low deaths in conservative German speaking cantons). To me that suggests that mask wearing isn't an adequate remedy to overcome a lack of social distancing. Same with UK and conservative party support.

The take home over this dangerous second wave is social distance, irrespective of whether you are wearing a mask.
Population density ...
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  #14511  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Population density ...
Well Connecticut doesn't have a massive city and besides, density doesn't explain why or how Chicago or DC are doing quite alright.

Nor that e.g. Tokyo had no problems or Rome or many other fairly major cities.

I've said it before - it's safe to agree there's no obvious correlation between anything and anything and since no one has a plan, no one is actually analyzing anything properly either. No matter what parameters you look for, you will find "proof" for one thing and "proof" for the opposite just as much.

No one knows anything.
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  #14512  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just take a look at the number of deaths per head of population in the US states.

Most deaths per capita:

1) New Jersey
2) New York
3) Massachusetts
4) Connecticut

Some of the bottom ones are some of the strongest Trump states.

44) West Virginia
45) Utah
49) Wyoming
50) Alaska

Obviously there's a few outliers, but the trend is clearly positive between democratic support (which i'm assuming correlates quite highly with support for mask wearing) and more covid deaths.

Now, I'm not saying that masks don't work - but to me that suggests that they don't work that well and that there is no substitute for social distancing (evidently helped by Trump states higher rurality).
Please explain how you eliminated all the other factors involved in coronavirus deaths so as to focus on mask-wearing?
For example, Democratic states are Democratic because they have many people of colour who vote that way. People of colour have around a five times higher rate of hospitalisation than white people due to COVID-19 according to the Mayo clinic.
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  #14513  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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Even in red states, the deaths are concentrated in the blue urban areas.

Now, I'm not saying that masks don't work - but to me that suggests that they don't work all that well and that there is no substitute for social distancing (evidently helped by Trump states higher rurality).
It's quite logical that urban areas are effected more, doesn't matter wheter its a blue or red governmented city.

Again: Masks arent meant to substitue social distance, the are an additional measurement, espescially in places where social distancing is hard to achieve or keep up.
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  #14514  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:36
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Re: Coronavirus

So, we're now in the risk list of Germany. Anyone entering (to stay) needs 14 day quarantine or a negative test. People entering and leaving Baden-Wrttemberg within 24 hours are exempt, thus cross-border shopping is still working. https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schwe...fene-138527443

I'm curious about the test. In theory, you cannot get a test in CH if you don't have symptoms......or traveling to Germany is a loophole to get tested?
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  #14515  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:42
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Re: Coronavirus

Estimates for todays number? Due anytime now

6402 I'm going with.
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  #14516  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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Population density ...
I don't disagree!
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Old 22.10.2020, 12:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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So, we're now in the risk list of Germany. Anyone entering (to stay) needs 14 day quarantine or a negative test. People entering and leaving Baden-Wrttemberg within 24 hours are exempt, thus cross-border shopping is still working. https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schwe...fene-138527443

I'm curious about the test. In theory, you cannot get a test in CH if you don't have symptoms......or traveling to Germany is a loophole to get tested?
You can get a test if you don’t have symptoms but you won’t be a priority and you have to pay for it yourself.
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Old 22.10.2020, 12:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just take a look at the number of deaths per head of population in the US states.

Most deaths per capita:

1) New Jersey
2) New York
3) Massachusetts
4) Connecticut

Some of the bottom ones are some of the strongest Trump states.

44) West Virginia
45) Utah
49) Wyoming
50) Alaska

Obviously there's a few outliers, but the trend is clearly positive between democratic support (which i'm assuming correlates quite highly with support for mask wearing) and more covid deaths. Even in red states, the deaths are concentrated in the blue urban areas.

Now, I'm not saying that masks don't work - but to me that suggests that they don't work all that well and that there is no substitute for social distancing (evidently helped by Trump states higher rurality).

I bet you could find that SVP support of a canton (and even more so for each geminde) here correlates negatively with COVID death rate (low deaths in conservative German speaking cantons). Same with UK and conservative party support. To me that suggests that mask wearing isn't an adequate remedy to overcome a lack of social distancing.

The take home for me over this dangerous second wave is social distance, irrespective of whether you are wearing a mask. Obviously when you have to go into a supermarket wear a mask.
Come on. People were dying in the Northeastern US because the virus was there long before people even knew and could wear a mask. This picture is about density and luck of not having been hit early.
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  #14519  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Please explain how you eliminated all the other factors involved in coronavirus deaths so as to focus on mask-wearing?
For example, Democratic states are Democratic because they have many people of colour who vote that way. People of colour have around a five times higher rate of hospitalisation than white people due to COVID-19 according to the Mayo clinic.
Are you sure?

10 least-white states in USA (2010):
Mississippi (republican)
Florida (republican)
Arizona (republican)
Georgia (republican)
Maryland (democratic)
Nevada (democratic)
Texas (republican)
New Mexico (democratic)
California (democratic)
Hawaii (democratic)

I make that 5-5. On the other hand, the two whitest states are both democratic.

Of the states with a lot of deaths in the north east, two are quite diverse (NJ and NY), two are not particularly diverse (MA and CA).

The biggest problem with your statement, is that I think you have cause and effect the wrong way around. Surely BAME people are much more likely to have bad outcomes because they live in big cities (and have jobs and possibly housing that do not permit for good social distancing), not that big cities fair badly because they have BAME people living in them.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 22.10.2020 at 13:05.
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  #14520  
Old 22.10.2020, 12:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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Come on. People were dying in the Northeastern US because the virus was there long before people even knew and could wear a mask. This picture is about density and luck of not having been hit early.
Thats exactly my point. The data clear that density/social distancing matters a lot, and almost certainly more so than mask wearing.

I'm not trying to deny that masks help, just that they don't help as much as social distancing.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 22.10.2020 at 13:12.
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