Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #14861  
Old 24.10.2020, 23:30
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,453
Groaned at 527 Times in 444 Posts
Thanked 20,485 Times in 10,771 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
I just checked, the London curve is similar to Switzerland, all kicked off in the last 2 weeks.

Given immunity probability only lasts 3 to 6 months it us unfortunately a real possibility that there will be no natural herd immunity. Peru is possibly the place to watch.
Thanks, it gets boring correcting stuff.

Historically, herd immunity has been achieved only through the use of vaccines.

So what is your [HvF] scientific basis for claiming herd immunity will be achieved for COVID-19 without vaccines?
Reply With Quote
  #14862  
Old 24.10.2020, 23:49
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,022
Groaned at 281 Times in 201 Posts
Thanked 10,562 Times in 3,962 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

I don't understand why anyone would think that herd immunity is possible with a virus that you can get more than once, due to losing antibodies after a few months. We've already seen cases where people have contracted the virus two times, and in one case, the guy had much worse symptoms the second time (requiring hospitalization even though he was only 25 years old).

And there is also this:

"To survive and escape the herd immunity, the virus may fight by gene mutation and then the original immune system won’t recognize the mutated virus and the herd immunity will thus be ineffective. In this case the viruses can be divided into two categories – DNA and RNA viruses. DNA viruses are stable with low possibility of mutation while RNA viruses are unstable and prone to mutate (Gelderblom, 1996). The SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA virus with a high potential risk of mutation (Phan, 2020)."

Source: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...20.547314/full

Last edited by Pancakes; 25.10.2020 at 00:00.
Reply With Quote
  #14863  
Old 24.10.2020, 23:54
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 2,599
Groaned at 131 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 4,717 Times in 1,880 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Any thoughts on China's numbers? Are their numbers all cooked up or have they got magical powers?
Maybe somewhat cooked, but mostly dictatorial powers. Life goes on there pretty (Chinese) normal, but you need to show "Covid passport" on mobile everywhere plus temp checks. According to my colleagues in HK and Guangzhou.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #14864  
Old 24.10.2020, 23:56
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,022
Groaned at 281 Times in 201 Posts
Thanked 10,562 Times in 3,962 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Any thoughts on China's numbers? Are their numbers all cooked up or have they got magical powers?
Here is what seems to be a pretty good article about how and why they managed to control the virus quite quickly in China:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...800-8/fulltext

Despite being the first place to be hit by COVID-19, China was well-placed to tackle the disease. It has a centralised epidemic response system. Most Chinese adults remember SARS-CoV and the high mortality rate that was associated with it. “The society was very alert as to what can happen in a coronavirus outbreak”, said Xi Chen (Yale School of Public Health, New Haven, Connecticut, USA). “Other countries do not have such fresh memories of a pandemic”.

“The speed of China's response was the crucial factor”, explains Gregory Poland, director of the Vaccine Research Group at the Mayo Clinic (Rochester, Minnesota, USA). “They moved very quickly to stop transmission. Other countries, even though they had much longer to prepare for the arrival of the virus, delayed their response and that meant they lost control”. The first reported cases of the disease that came to be known as COVID-19 occurred in Wuhan, Hubei province, in late December 2019. China released the genomic sequence of the virus on Jan 10, 2020, and began enacting a raft of rigorous countermeasures later in the same month.
Wuhan was placed under a strict lockdown that lasted 76 days. Public transport was suspended. Soon afterwards, similar measures were implemented in every city in Hubei province. Across the country, 14 000 health checkpoints were established at public transport hubs. School re-openings after the winter vacation were delayed and population movements were severely curtailed. Dozens of cities implemented family outdoor restrictions, which typically meant that only one member of each household was permitted to leave the home every couple of days to collect necessary supplies. Within weeks, China had managed to test 9 million people for SARS-CoV-2 in Wuhan. It set up an effective national system of contact tracing. By contrast, the UK's capacity for contact tracing was overwhelmed soon after the pandemic struck the country.

As the world's largest manufacturer of personal protective equipment, it was relatively straightforward for China to ramp up production of clinical gowns and surgical masks. Moreover, the Chinese readily adopted mask wearing. “Compliance was very high”, said Chen. “Compare that with the USA, where even in June and July, when the virus was surging, people were still refusing to wear masks. Even in late September, President Trump still treated Joe Biden's mask-wearing as a weakness to be ridiculed”.

“Commitment to the greater good is engrained in the culture; there is not the hyper-individualism that characterises parts of the USA, and has driven most of the resistance to the countermeasures against the coronavirus.” Poland noted that the Chinese accept the notion that disease control is a matter of science. “China does not have the kind of raucous anti-vaccine, anti-science movement that is trying to derail the fight against COVID-19 in the USA”, he said.

Last edited by Pancakes; 25.10.2020 at 00:30.
Reply With Quote
  #14865  
Old 25.10.2020, 00:48
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,453
Groaned at 527 Times in 444 Posts
Thanked 20,485 Times in 10,771 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
But the "resurgence" in Stockholm, Nes York and London is not nearly as strong as the second wave we are seeing here, or in the north of England or in the Czech Republic. Which would indicate that there is, if not yet herd immunity then a decent herd effect is there from the first wave depressing R.
Here you can clearly see the rate of increase second wave in London is not so strong as the first
Name:  londonnew231020.jpg
Views: 513
Size:  59.2 KB
Reply With Quote
  #14866  
Old 25.10.2020, 00:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,876
Groaned at 63 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 4,070 Times in 1,901 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
I just checked, the London curve is similar to Switzerland, all kicked off in the last 2 weeks.

Given immunity probably only lasts 3 to 6 months it is unfortunately a real possibility that there will be no natural herd immunity. Peru is possibly the place to watch.
Yes I agree - not all that different. Consistent with the facts that they have had about c. 20% herd effect but on the other hand have a very dense population, with Switzerland being down at 10% or so. Considering their population density it's better than rUK. It's definitely not at herd immunity yet just beginning to "outperform" it's demographics.

Agree es Peru. It's not there yet though.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 25.10.2020 at 02:00.
Reply With Quote
  #14867  
Old 25.10.2020, 00:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,876
Groaned at 63 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 4,070 Times in 1,901 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Here you can clearly see the rate of increase second wave in London is not so strong as the first
Attachment 140504
You are aware that the first wave curve is highly non-reflective of reality due to huge testing shortages?

Just look at the deaths. R isn't as high now as it was then. Yes death rates are lower now - but that shouldn't affect the steepness of the death curve, just it's height. To claim infection rates are the same then and now is at worst fake news and at best an inadequately close reading of the data.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 25.10.2020 at 01:53.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #14868  
Old 25.10.2020, 01:12
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,876
Groaned at 63 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 4,070 Times in 1,901 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Thanks, it gets boring correcting stuff.

Historically, herd immunity has been achieved only through the use of vaccines.

So what is your [HvF] scientific basis for claiming herd immunity will be achieved for COVID-19 without vaccines?
Last time I checked Spanish flu is now extinct. Pandemics dont last forever even when there is no vaccine. The Black Death wasn't still going around decimating villages until we found penicillin

As for Covid: Will absolute immunity of the population occur without a vaccine in the next say 12 months such that no more cases are found in a given city? Im pretty sure we can agree on no. Behaviour will be too cautious and infections too low. We are not going to replicate the performance of a good vaccine in a year through natural infection.

Will however a stage be reached where the level of immunity is such that reopening can occur without another significant wave happening - I personally think this is probable in the strongest hit places but I could be wrong - let's see. Perhaps that doesn't really count as "herd immunity" - really the term is a bit vague as it's inherently behaviour dependent and doesn't have a precise cut off point.

My point expressed more conceptually rather than using the perhaps unhelpful term "herd immunity" is that dense urban western cities will not and were never going to manage to control R long term without a very significant level of infection derived immunity (which isn't perfect and yes some people will be reinfected - but it'll be a lot better than nothing). To attempt to prevent infections without acquiring some natural immunity for a period of 18 months in these places was always going to fail. Unless you really wanted an 18 month proper lockdown - and then we are getting into the territory of having a medicine worse than the disease.

I think we as humans think we can always control everything. The reality is without a North Korean or Chinese style totalitarian government or a New Zealand style small and isolated country is that we can't. Deaths are going to happen. We can push them back but probably not forever as rules are followed less and less well over time - that's just basic psychology and kids realising they are at low risk and being at the stage of life where they don't really yet think of others. The Czech Republic's of this world who avoided the first wave are probably going to find it disproportionately hard over the winter.

People have done really really well and sacrificed a lot - but are basically being blamed for an "act of god". Unfortunately shit happens sometimes. I think the tide is turning against further restrictions and to just ride through it somehow - that from the centre left and the centre right. Basically because there is no alternative without destroying livelihoods. Personally I'm very happy to wear a mask and social distance and am reluctantly wfh while things are really bad, but I would not not like to see unnecessary measures like shops shutting.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 25.10.2020 at 02:39.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #14869  
Old 25.10.2020, 01:48
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Thun
Posts: 50
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 103 Times in 33 Posts
Limestone is considered knowledgeableLimestone is considered knowledgeableLimestone is considered knowledgeable
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Last time I checked Spanish flu is now extinct. Pandemics dont last forever even when there is no vaccine. The Black Death wasn't still going around decimating villages until we found penicillin
A major difference between them is that flu or plague victims are symptomatic and can be isolated. With the current diagnostic techniques, this is not the case for coronavirus. So, for me, to end the pandemic, we need a much better diagnostic tool and a much better level of compliance regarding the medical recommendations.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Limestone for this useful post:
  #14870  
Old 25.10.2020, 02:17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Thun
Posts: 50
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 103 Times in 33 Posts
Limestone is considered knowledgeableLimestone is considered knowledgeableLimestone is considered knowledgeable
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Any thoughts on China's numbers? Are their numbers all cooked up or have they got magical powers?
As their neighbor, I wouldn't trust their numbers, they are certainly faked to a certain extent. However, I believe that they do have the power and resources needed to avoid the escalation of cases.

I've witnessed the same strategy in my country, Vietnam. Quarantine camps, local lockdowns and contact tracing were implemented very fast and efficiently. I still remember a story of a guy who paraglided into a camp, which was still a normal university campus a few hours before. Just for a few hours of fun, he had to stay in the camp for 2 weeks .
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Limestone for this useful post:
  #14871  
Old 25.10.2020, 07:42
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,021
Groaned at 128 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 516 Times in 276 Posts
markalex has an excellent reputationmarkalex has an excellent reputationmarkalex has an excellent reputationmarkalex has an excellent reputation
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
back home, a friend tested positive with symptoms this week. he got it at work, 18 people positive with symptoms from 25 that were at work due to workshop. even though everybody had masks and they had 2 m between and disinfectants everywhere. epidemiologist said due to air conditionaing that wasn't cleaned enough. that is why some buildings in Zagreb turned off air conditioning this summer.
3 of 18 positive with symptoms got flu shot like 5 days before testing positive for covid and have now the worsts symptoms from everyone and highes fever. they were told it's because the body is fighting now both of reactions.

this got me thinking, should I get the flu shot or not. my company will vaccinate all employees that want, for free.
Find my comment on masks. Material/Surgical ones don't protect you, they stop you spreading droplets everywhere. If you want protection you need a mask with a filter, an N95 or something similar.
Reply With Quote
  #14872  
Old 25.10.2020, 08:53
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,022
Groaned at 281 Times in 201 Posts
Thanked 10,562 Times in 3,962 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Last time I checked Spanish flu is now extinct. Pandemics dont last forever even when there is no vaccine.

The Spanish Flu was an H1N1 virus (not a coronavirus) that people were only able to get once, thus eventually allowing herd immunity to happen without a vaccine.

Unlike the Spanish Flu, COVID is a coronavirus that people can get more than once.

Also, with the Spanish Flu, it required almost 50 million deaths to get to herd immunity.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #14873  
Old 25.10.2020, 09:31
Klostersgirl's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ZH
Posts: 658
Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 1,269 Times in 392 Posts
Klostersgirl has a reputation beyond reputeKlostersgirl has a reputation beyond reputeKlostersgirl has a reputation beyond reputeKlostersgirl has a reputation beyond reputeKlostersgirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Last time I checked Spanish flu is now extinct. Pandemics dont last forever even when there is no vaccine. The Black Death wasn't still going around decimating villages until we found penicillin.
The plague hasn't gone away though https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/07/a...scn/index.html
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Klostersgirl for this useful post:
  #14874  
Old 25.10.2020, 09:38
Belgianmum's Avatar
Roastbeef & Yorkshire mod
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 13,304
Groaned at 241 Times in 202 Posts
Thanked 22,261 Times in 9,095 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
And whilst the Spanish flu virus is technically extinct, descendants of the virus are still very much present today.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
  #14875  
Old 25.10.2020, 10:24
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,453
Groaned at 527 Times in 444 Posts
Thanked 20,485 Times in 10,771 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

@HickvonFrick

According to this paper
Quote:
The impact of this [Spanish Flu] pandemic was not limited to 1918–1919.
All influenza A pandemics since that time, and indeed almost all cases of influenza A worldwide (excepting human infections from avian viruses such as H5N1 and H7N7), have been caused by descendants of the 1918 virus, including "drifted" H1N1 viruses and reassorted H2N2 and H3N2 viruses.
As was mentioned Black Death is still around but as you wrote is now easily cured. The last major incidents known
Quote:
The third plague pandemic (1855–1859) started in China in the mid-19th century, spreading to all inhabited continents and killing 10 million people in India alone.
Twelve plague outbreaks in Australia between 1900 and 1925 resulted in well over 1,000 deaths, chiefly in Sydney.
It was not confined to the Middle Ages.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #14876  
Old 25.10.2020, 10:34
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,022
Groaned at 281 Times in 201 Posts
Thanked 10,562 Times in 3,962 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

It's really a shame that (some) people don't take the time to do some proper research before posting here on the EF. It would really help prevent a lot of other people from wasting their time.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #14877  
Old 25.10.2020, 10:34
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 2,599
Groaned at 131 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 4,717 Times in 1,880 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

I just read that now the public health directors of Central Switzerland are requesting for thr Federal Council to take harder measures.

Why don't they just go ahead themselves? It is likely that they cannot convince their allegedly "economy-friendly" bosses and colleagues in the cantonal governments. So essentially they are doing what the hospital in Schwyz did - a public cry for help because the governments are sitting on their asses and still foolishly think that no or soft measures will protect the economy.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #14878  
Old 25.10.2020, 10:47
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,453
Groaned at 527 Times in 444 Posts
Thanked 20,485 Times in 10,771 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Yes I agree - not all that different. Consistent with the facts that they have had about c. 20% herd effect but on the other hand have a very dense population, with Switzerland being down at 10% or so. Considering their population density it's better than rUK. It's definitely not at herd immunity yet just beginning to "outperform" it's demographics.

Agree es Peru. It's not there yet though.
The percentage of those testing positive for antibodies to the coronavirus (COVID-19) in London is ca. 10%+, not sure where you got 20%?
There is plenty of data around, no need to make your own guesses.

Name:  antibodyLondonSep20.jpg
Views: 242
Size:  94.2 KB
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #14879  
Old 25.10.2020, 10:50
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,022
Groaned at 281 Times in 201 Posts
Thanked 10,562 Times in 3,962 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I just read that now the public health directors of Central Switzerland are requesting for thr Federal Council to take harder measures.

Why don't they just go ahead themselves? It is likely that they cannot convince their allegedly "economy-friendly" bosses and colleagues in the cantonal governments. So essentially they are doing what the hospital in Schwyz did - a public cry for help because the governments are sitting on their asses and still foolishly think that no or soft measures will protect the economy.
I guess the gov't is waiting until all the ICU beds are full to finally do something about it.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #14880  
Old 25.10.2020, 11:12
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 2,599
Groaned at 131 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 4,717 Times in 1,880 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
You are aware that the first wave curve is highly non-reflective of reality due to huge testing shortages?

Just look at the deaths. R isn't as high now as it was then. Yes death rates are lower now - but that shouldn't affect the steepness of the death curve, just it's height. To claim infection rates are the same then and now is at worst fake news and at best an inadequately close reading of the data.
You had recently estimated real cases per day in Switzerland at 27000, assuming a factor of 4.5 over registered cases. In March we had max 1500 registered cases per day. So are you suggesting that the factor in March then was 18 or higher, if you state that current infection rates are lower than in March?

Testing is 3-4 times now what is was then. What makes me believe that infections are just as bad now, is the positivity rate. This is as high or even higher now, with 26% on Friday.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 14 (2 members and 12 guests)
irish_marmot, bowlie
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Coronavirus Jokes makeabigwish Daily life 278 Yesterday 15:58
Coronavirus closed janvier Forum support 18 01.11.2020 14:12
Paid holidays and coronavirus Curtiss Employment 2 20.04.2020 10:22
Coronavirus scammers are out there - be warned Medea Fleecestealer Daily life 9 18.04.2020 19:53
Leaving Switzerland for UK during coronavirus barkingtreewolf Leaving Switzerland 19 11.04.2020 12:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0