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  #15101  
Old 27.10.2020, 10:07
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Re: Coronavirus

Now the weather is turning colder and I am starting to wear gloves again does anybody know what the handwashing protocol is then?

There does not seem to be any point in washing my hands when I get home if they were always in gloves.

And what about the gloves? I do not want to wash my gentleman's top-quality black leather gloves several times a day!

Wearing disposable plastic gloves over my gloves seems a bit excessive?
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  #15102  
Old 27.10.2020, 10:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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Maybe that ship has sailed?
I actually don't think this ship has sailed and the Swiss government has so far shown it's quite good at striking a balance between extreme options proposed by the two warring camps. A lockdown, in winter time, until April / May is most probably a recipe for disaster: the most common infection scenario is actually at home. It was one thing to lock people in spring, nice weather, Coop open, jogging was fun; very different ball-game now. I'll not even venture into the economic effects, it's pretty visible the lasting damage it still has and killing the small, family owned businesses will literally change the country for the worse. Multinationals will muddle-through, a few rounds of lay-offs, some cost-cutting and access to stock-markets will allow them to survive. Your local artisanal shop, not so much.
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Old 27.10.2020, 10:18
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Re: Coronavirus

I sincerely doubt that there will be a lockdown through the winter, that would create fiscal issues for the government. It would be their so-called "Circuit Breaker" to slow down the spread of the virus.

The businesses do need support and do need a way to be helped to survive. Many restaurants could adapt and have take-out but bars have an issue and the tourism industry relies on social flexibility. That high season starts soon, between now and then, there is a gap which would be ideal to have a short interruption.

That's what I hear will happen in the area of Austria that I spend an ever-increasing amount of time. The local businesses might even do their own lockdown in November to ensure they are all prepared for the high season starting late December.
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Old 27.10.2020, 10:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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It makes absolutely no sense. All the evidence, as weak as is, has shown that masks may only have a minor effect in small enclosed areas.

Fortunately, as with the ridiculous quarantine regulations, this will also be unenforceable, so you needn't worry about me complaining about getting fined! If this does indeed come into force tomorrow, I actually see it as a moral obligation to disregard it. Compliance is basically an endorsement of this lunacy



I suggest you go and read the Sunday Times investigation I posted a few pages back and you'll find that your assessment is wildly inaccurate. UK data has shown that the NHS was never overrun, in fact it never even came close to being at capacity throughout the crisis, it had in fact far more empty beds than normal.

Routine operations were postponed, the number of new patients presenting themselves disintegrated (both at GPs and A&E), even when there was more capacity than normal! The collapse in non-Covid healthcare is a scandal!

I'm sure you'll be telling us next the increase in dementia deaths, depression and suicides is also a knock on effect of Covid and not due to lockdown
Of course, the hospital beds were not full; thank you for confirming the lockdowns achieved their objective.

You wrote "the number of new patients presenting themselves disintegrated (both at GPs and A&E)" perhaps you meant "the number of patients with new symptoms......"?
If they chose not to present then that was their decision, nothing to do with the lockdown.

If people were not presenting themselves then who was diagnosing these increased depressions? Does not make sense.
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Old 27.10.2020, 10:57
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Re: Coronavirus

This is quite interesting. The number of people testing positive for antibodies has fallen by 26% between June and September which means that once infected and going through the disease, the immunity is really short lived. HOWEVER, the number of healthcare workers with antibodies remained relatively high which suggests that a certain level of exposure is actually beneficial to maintaining immunity.

One more reason to avoid lockdown: ensure a balanced exposure to achieve lasting immunity.


https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54696873
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  #15106  
Old 27.10.2020, 11:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's not lockdown creating health problems.
A great graph that shows the deleterious effects of lockdowns and how precisely that triggers an extension of the at-risk population and comorbidities.

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Old 27.10.2020, 11:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is quite interesting. The number of people testing positive for antibodies has fallen by 26% between June and September which means that once infected and going through the disease, the immunity is really short lived. HOWEVER, the number of healthcare workers with antibodies remained relatively high which suggests that a certain level of exposure is actually beneficial to maintaining immunity.

One more reason to avoid lockdown: ensure a balanced exposure to achieve lasting immunity.


https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54696873
So in other words it was much wiser to let the virus have its run, buckle up for 3 months so everyone can catch it and be done with the virus? Instead we will play open/close in perpetuity until everybody is vaccinated? And have even more victims on the long run than originally without any measures?
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  #15108  
Old 27.10.2020, 11:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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The canton forecast (upper right corner) for the 30/10 looks very grim

https://icumonitoring.ch/
Schwyz: 3 out of 4 ventilators already in use. They have capacity for one (1) person that requires assisted breathing and that person may be already hospitalized.
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Old 27.10.2020, 11:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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A great graph that shows the deleterious effects of lockdowns and how precisely that triggers an extension of the at-risk population and comorbidities.
hahaha, sure. People develop diabetes and cardio disease during a few weeks lockdown. It's not all the past 20 years of doing nothing, it's just a number a weeks I can count with my fingers. I also tell the last beer is the ONE that made me drunk, not the 5 half-liters before the last one....albeit, I tell this as a joke.

Also, the graphic is quite misleading because the muscle loss was measured in people with broken bones or sedated in ICU beds. That's what the article Kirwan (2020) says ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7528158/). Both cases imply total immobilization. Even the laziest of us will leave the sofa to pee, that's already a lot of movement compared to being immobile.

So, where are the drawings representing broken legs and being sedated in a ICU bed? Read before sharing graphics.
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Old 27.10.2020, 11:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is quite interesting. The number of people testing positive for antibodies has fallen by 26% between June and September which means that once infected and going through the disease, the immunity is really short lived. HOWEVER, the number of healthcare workers with antibodies remained relatively high which suggests that a certain level of exposure is actually beneficial to maintaining immunity.

One more reason to avoid lockdown: ensure a balanced exposure to achieve lasting immunity.


https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54696873
sure; living life as if it does not exist will ensure those prone to COVID infection and complications will likely die. Once it's all done, we're good.

it's one approach. I am sure a balanced approach is better with some short-term strong sanctions to break the chain of infection up.

we can all cherry-pick the "information" we want to believe in but there is no simple solution here. But inaction and life as normal will lead to fatalities. That's clear.
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Old 27.10.2020, 11:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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sure; living life as if it does not exist will ensure those prone to COVID infection and complications will likely die. Once it's all done, we're good.
Where exactly did I say, hint or point in that direction?! What I suggested is exactly what the study suggests: balanced exposure seems to be the way to ensure long-lived immunity.
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Old 27.10.2020, 11:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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Where exactly did I say, hint or point in that direction?! What I suggested is exactly what the study suggests: balanced exposure seems to be the way to ensure long-lived immunity.
you said "one more reason to avoid lockdown".

I believe it's inevitable and a must. I've also clearly stated that lockdown for months would not be the aim, it cannot be.

The ramifications are immense; in business neighbourhoods, the local stores are crippled. There were some people back in the office but this has reduced again. National chains can absorb it but independents can't, especially in the food and beverage industry.

I predict a two-week lockdown from Sunday and a superspreader of a weekend with parties everywhere (which will mean figures are distorted at the end of the two weeks).
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Old 27.10.2020, 11:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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What's strange in this pandemic in Sweden was how Goteborg was hardly affected at all by Covid when compared to Stockholm. Maybe because the fairly regular grenade attacks there keep everyone indoors at night!
you right. during all the nights here I only hear "booms" here and there
this is swedish way of lockdowns
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  #15114  
Old 27.10.2020, 12:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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Alternatively go and gain a little scientific knowledge
please, stop that arrogant approach.
if you think, that vaccine works other way, than train human's immune system on specific type of viruses, please provide a proof of that.
this is a discussion, you know
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Old 27.10.2020, 12:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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hahaha, sure. People develop diabetes and cardio disease during a few weeks lockdown. It's not all the past 20 years of doing nothing, it's just a number a weeks I can count with my fingers. I also tell the last beer is the ONE that made me drunk, not the 5 half-liters before the last one....albeit, I tell this as a joke.

Also, the graphic is quite misleading because the muscle loss was measured in people with broken bones or sedated in ICU beds. That's what the article Kirwan (2020) says ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7528158/). Both cases imply total immobilization. Even the laziest of us will leave the sofa to pee, that's already a lot of movement compared to being immobile.

So, where are the drawings representing broken legs and being sedated in a ICU bed? Read before sharing graphics.
if I smoke 5 cigarettes a day for 10 years and all of a sudden because of lockdown/boredom/emotional stress, I start smoking 30 a day for a few weeks as you say (lockdowns spanned months in some countries) and keep on doing so, I'm to blame my newfound health problems on my moderate smoking of years prior?

And the graph doesn't suggest that you develop diabetes or cardiovascular disease by being in lockdown, just that your risk goes up and consequently, so do your odds of developing a more severe form of Covid-19 and hospitals being overwhelmed. People are already reporting weight gain because of lockdowns, so their health objectively got worse. Surprise. Others killed themselves.

Lockdowns are basically a superlative state of (imposed) sedentariness, which a lot of people were already (voluntarily) in before Covid. They can make it harder for people to go back to adopting a regular lifestyle, so the consequences go beyond just the few weeks of not being out.
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  #15116  
Old 27.10.2020, 12:08
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we need to act together as a society and maybe suck it up in the short term that our social freedom is impacted.
do you know, how frogs gets boiled?
it suck it up in a little portions of temperature increases

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I do not want to wash my gentleman's top-quality black leather gloves several times a day!
it seems, you dont care about other's lives

Last edited by roegner; 27.10.2020 at 12:22. Reason: Mergin consecutive posts
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Old 27.10.2020, 12:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is quite interesting. The number of people testing positive for antibodies has fallen by 26% between June and September which means that once infected and going through the disease, the immunity is really short lived. HOWEVER, the number of healthcare workers with antibodies remained relatively high which suggests that a certain level of exposure is actually beneficial to maintaining immunity.

One more reason to avoid lockdown: ensure a balanced exposure to achieve lasting immunity.


https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54696873
immunity is not only antibodies, but also t-cells
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(20)30610-3
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  #15118  
Old 27.10.2020, 12:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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if I smoke 5 cigarettes a day for 10 years and all of a sudden because of lockdown/boredom/emotional stress, I start smoking 30 a day for a few weeks as you say (lockdowns spanned months in some countries) and keep on doing so, I'm to blame my newfound health problems on my moderate smoking of years prior?
I would not blame lockdown, I would blame your poor decision making.

since March, I am fitter than I've been for 20 years. I exercise more, spend more time outside and am healthier.

It's a side-effect of lockdown but there can be positives as well as negatives.

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Old 27.10.2020, 12:24
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Re: Coronavirus

A lockdown is what you make it.. You can sit and eat pizza if you want.. But even under our strictest lockdown, you could still buy decent food and get out for a walk , run , swim , whatever.

I used to have my gym 2-3 mins from my office, my nearest now is +20mins drive.. So I've adapted. Instead of going at lunchtime I get my ass out of bed eat 5am and go to the 6am session.

We also realised that during restrictions we were drinking much more than usual, nice weather, no commute, loads of wine in the rack, not much else to do .. So we've cut that down pretty dramatically.. We done loads in the garden, sorted out loads of crap in the house..

Kids have also adapted, they were watching too much crap on TV.. So we cut that and they are now mostly outside on trampolines or skateboards etc..

Make the most of it.
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  #15120  
Old 27.10.2020, 12:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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if I smoke 5 cigarettes a day for 10 years and all of a sudden because of lockdown/boredom/emotional stress, I start smoking 30 a day for a few weeks as you say (lockdowns spanned months in some countries) and keep on doing so, I'm to blame my newfound health problems on my moderate smoking of years prior?

And the graph doesn't suggest that you develop diabetes or cardiovascular disease by being in lockdown, just that your risk goes up and consequently, so do your odds of developing a more severe form of Covid-19 and hospitals being overwhelmed. People are already reporting weight gain because of lockdowns, so their health objectively got worse. Surprise. Others killed themselves.

Lockdowns are basically a superlative state of (imposed) sedentariness, which a lot of people were already (voluntarily) in before Covid. They can make it harder for people to go back to adopting a regular lifestyle, so the consequences go beyond just the few weeks of not being out.
Personal responsibility?. It's one of the few local cultural features I do like here. In simpler terms, adulting.
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