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  #15401  
Old 28.10.2020, 21:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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I saw an article a few days ago about some healthcare workers in Belgium being asked to continue working even though they have tested positive for COVID, due to a shortage of healthcare workers there.

The outbreak is so bad in Belgium, some Covid-positive health workers are being asked to keep working
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/27/e...ntl/index.html
Not so much better here. I know spitex workers who should be in quarantine due exposure but have been told they have to continue working.

Even better, they have been told they can quarantine later when case numbers go down.

Last edited by baboon; 28.10.2020 at 23:05.
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  #15402  
Old 28.10.2020, 21:08
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Re: Coronavirus

Just been catching up. Phew.

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Yeah, it's a bit confusing because on the one hand, I've seen articles saying that small children do not transmit the virus easily and then I've seen other articles saying that they can get the virus just as easily as adults and can spread it just as easily.

I know that our pediatrician's office has had at least 10 cases of their patients testing positive for the virus (and probably more since then, as it was last June when I asked them).
....
Kids, AFAIK, have always been carriers.

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Jeez, I was just sitting here talking about kids bringing the virus home from school, and now my 9-year old just came home from school, for lunch, and told me that an ambulance came to his school today because the teacher of the other* 3rd grade class was so sick.

* There are two third-grade classes at his school, and the teacher who was taken by ambulance is the teacher of the other class -- the one that he's not in.

I just really hope she's okay... and that it is not the virus.
Lots of teaching staff and kids ill in the UK. My friend's school had to close early for half term aa something like 32 staff were isolating /infected. Not to mention c 250 kids.

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Well, the culture around here is not compatible with authoritarian benevolent rulers. It may not control a pandemic in an optimal way but it prevents uglier stuff in the long term. We can leave in peace in spite of differences.
I'm not sure the Swiss culture isn't used to benevolent authority. Well as benevolent as a system of fines for everything can be. Not sure it's personal responsibility/autonomy so much as the illusion thereof.


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You have this wrong. The Germans don't want rules, but if they are imposed they will be followed to the letter.

The French want to have loads of rules and then ignore all of them.

Brits are in the middle - we don't want rules and don't follow them.

Ha! Brits are pretty good at following the rules for the most part, we are a nation of excellent queue-rs after all.

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I’ve been teaching with it since August. It took me time but I got used to it. Now I actually feel naked without it
Teaching in a mask is shite. Much respect.


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Bravo Switzerland, sensible once again, the messaging is clear, people will now adjust their behaviour and the numbers will start to come down (if they haven't already done so!).
Will they really? I don't think so. Swiss numbers are worse than the UK.

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I think they count on self imposed reasonable behavior. I am not sure how that will work for all the staff in little kids institutions but the staff has to figure out I guess, or the main admin, les communes. Close down case by case.

Strict lockdowns as we see now do cause people to rebel, in IT, US, etc.
Up to a point, to a given qualification of "reasonable". Take the UK: not possible /practical to wear masks when dealing with under 11s. Social distancing in schools has Always been a nightmare.

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That's the point, the rules in March were never required in the first place, people had already adjusted their behaviour. R number was declining before lockdown as had peak infection.

Agree people are tired, however I think the last week or two will have refocused the minds.



Mask wearing is one measure that doesn't help. Like everyone I have adjusted my behaviour and have managed to avoid catching (and spreading) the virus so far, so I must be doing something right!

Good grief. You are still banging this same drum ? I'm sure your sample of one is most helpful...


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Government employees who protest, they have safe salaries that will always be paid. They don't know how lucky they are.
Seriously? This is a pretty callous attitude regarding people who put themselves on the line for ridiculous amounts of hours a week in the most uncomfortable of conditions.

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Interesting speech by French president, the tone of voice and delivery made me expect to lockdown till at least spring break next year..and then: schools, travel, businesses open, interior travel banned, zero social life, especially within family. I cannot picture French teachers' unions to be happy to be exposed, taking care of teaching live while supervising many students in quarantine. There are classes of more than 40 children. I hope they have a good system in place, new measures effective on Friday.

UK teaching unions aren't happy. Live streaming lessons to those at home whilst simultaneously dealing with those in front of you is nigh on impossible. My sympathies to the French teachers. 40 kids in a class is rank.
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  #15403  
Old 28.10.2020, 21:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Seriously?

Listening to this press conference I hear a convolution of small rules. I do not hear a clear message. If R0 is still at 1.7 like Berset just said, the "measures" from two weeks ago have had absolutely zero effect.
Politicians don't do science, they do re-election.

I'm sure scientific advisors proposed sterner measures, however advisors are not in charge.
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  #15404  
Old 28.10.2020, 21:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Seriously? This is a pretty callous attitude regarding people who put themselves on the line for ridiculous amounts of hours a week in the most uncomfortable of conditions.
I'm afraid a fairly typical attitude from fmf.
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  #15405  
Old 28.10.2020, 21:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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Seriously? This is a pretty callous attitude regarding people who put themselves on the line for ridiculous amounts of hours a week in the most uncomfortable of conditions.
Everybody is very uncomfortable right now with the working conditions in every job area, not to mention the financial difficulties millions are experiencing or the jobless people due to restrictions and what not that have families to feed

If anybody is unhappy of the working conditions they should quit and work something else, plenty of neighboring workers would be happy to take over and work even better for the salaries!
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  #15406  
Old 28.10.2020, 21:48
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Re: Coronavirus

I'm optimistic that Swiss infection rates will start to decrease soon. Kanton Schwyz has been following stricter guidelines since last week and most people are quite sensible and understanding of the situation.

I've gotten rather used to wearing a mask as other have as well.
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  #15407  
Old 28.10.2020, 23:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Government employees who protest, they have safe salaries that will always be paid. They don't know how lucky they are.
Apart from public cantonal hospitals like the CHUV or HUG, nurses & physicians are not government employees. Ask them, they do not feel lucky

And in terms of their salary (To say nothing about the pay gap based on gender), it's outrageous how little they are being paid compared to say a cashier at the grocery store or secretary in an office
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  #15408  
Old 28.10.2020, 23:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm optimistic that Swiss infection rates will start to decrease soon. Kanton Schwyz has been following stricter guidelines since last week and most people are quite sensible and understanding of the situation.

I've gotten rather used to wearing a mask as other have as well.
That's a brave call. I suspect they will at best plateau. Everyone is behaving totally normally in the Fricktal. Cafe looks full to the rafters. Let's see.
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  #15409  
Old 29.10.2020, 00:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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I also see high compliance in suisse romandie. That's because we had many cases here before (VD, GE), people know what it translates to in terms of ICU and ER depts.

Today most people walk outside in masks, train stations masks only and most people actually walk from the stations instead of hopping on the bus for a few stops.
It must be all the affairs driving the infections then - or is that just the French French?
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  #15410  
Old 29.10.2020, 03:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm all confused. I thought our highly non-scientific COVID-mininizing experts here on EF said that new infections had basically dried up and it was all over?

UK faces 50,000 cases a day by October without action

"Sir Patrick Vallance said that "would be expected to lead to about 200 deaths per day" a month after that."
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That prediction is an utter joke! As will be the imminent UK response!
I had a feeling this post by Tony Clifton might come back and bite him in the arse. He was quite right, the "prediction" of 50,000 cases a day in the UK by October was "an utter joke":

It's 29 October and the number of new cases daily in England alone is double that: around 100,000, according to an Imperial College London analysis. The number of infections is doubling every nine days. The R0 in London is approaching 3.0. Deaths in the UK are running at 310 per day—more than 150% of the figure mentioned by Sir Patrick as a possible consequence if the coronavirus were to continue to spread uncontrolled.

I'm sorry to say this, but it's fools who deny the severity of the disease and who protest against simple measures to control it, such as lockdowns and wearing masks, who are responsible for this.

TonyClifton, it's time you shut up. I'm all for free speech and alternative opinions, but I do not believe that advocacy of proven bullshit has any place on our forum. Your endless stream of posts that fly in the face of all empirical evidence has to stop. Take it elsewhere, if you must, but frankly, the only place I can imagine such crap would be tolerated is some conspiracy theorists' forum.

Yes, I'm angry. Pissed off that people like you are dead set against basic, obvious, common sense measures, and that other people are influenced by you. Angry that the cavalier disregard that you and others like you display for others' safety has ultimately resulted in the second wave of the pandemic that most of the world is now experiencing. And especially furious that many hundreds, maybe even thousands of people will die in Switzerland, and hundreds of thousands worldwide, because of people like you who seek to make others believe that COVID-19 is nothing to be concerned about.

So stop with the lies and the misinformation. I've had more than enough of it and I'm pretty sure most of the others on EF have too. This is a time to pull together and do whatever we can to help those around us, not a time to try to undermine efforts to contain this pandemic.

Let me be clear: this advice applies equally to other members of EF who engage in similar posting activity with regard to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Last edited by 22 yards; 29.10.2020 at 04:10.
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  #15411  
Old 29.10.2020, 03:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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Everybody is very uncomfortable right now with the working conditions in every job area, not to mention the financial difficulties millions are experiencing or the jobless people due to restrictions and what not that have families to feed

If anybody is unhappy of the working conditions they should quit and work something else, plenty of neighboring workers would be happy to take over and work even better for the salaries!
Your post referred back to posts about health-care workers in hospitals, i.e. government employees working as doctors, nurses, radiographers, lab technicians, etc., all receiving their salaries.

In all of these areas, there is a shortage of staff. That was already the case, pre-Covid19. Since the arrival of Corona, the staff shortage has increased.

This is partly because some of those medical staff, being typically more subjected to repeated exposure to the virus (and other nasties) than a non-hospital employee, have tended to contract Covid19, and other illnesses, more so than previously. Partly it is because, once there's a gap in the team with someone off on sick-leave, all the others in that team are called upon to work extra shifts which, over weeks and months has worn them down, making the remaining workers more prone to illness (and just plain exhaustion) than previously.

Currently, every nurse and every doctor I know is working overtime, some up to 150% or more of their contract. They spend their time that is not at work struggling to maintain their own health, mostly by cutting back on activities besides eating, sleeping, showering and travelling back to the hospital.

One doctor told me: "I see my practice, the train, my bathroom, my bed, and then all that in reverse order." The wife of a nurse recently sent him an sms: "While I admire what you're doing in your job, I feel I must remind you that you haven't seen our children in 4 days."

So no, there are not, as you put it:
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plenty of neighboring workers would be happy to take over and work even better for the salaries!
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  #15412  
Old 29.10.2020, 07:12
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Re: Coronavirus

I am told the new restrictions announced yesterday where federal restrictions and the cantons are yet to come up with their own adjustments... interested in VAUD next move, anybody out there heard anything on that?
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  #15413  
Old 29.10.2020, 07:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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I had a feeling this post by Tony Clifton might come back and bite him in the arse. He was quite right, the "prediction" of 50,000 cases a day in the UK by October was "an utter joke":

It's 29 October and the number of new cases daily in England alone is double that: around 100,000, according to an Imperial College London analysis. The number of infections is doubling every nine days. The R0 in London is approaching 3.0. Deaths in the UK are running at 310 per day—more than 150% of the figure mentioned by Sir Patrick as a possible consequence if the coronavirus were to continue to spread uncontrolled.

I'm sorry to say this, but it's fools who deny the severity of the disease and who protest against simple measures to control it, such as lockdowns and wearing masks, who are responsible for this.

TonyClifton, it's time you shut up. I'm all for free speech and alternative opinions, but I do not believe that advocacy of proven bullshit has any place on our forum. Your endless stream of posts that fly in the face of all empirical evidence has to stop. Take it elsewhere, if you must, but frankly, the only place I can imagine such crap would be tolerated is some conspiracy theorists' forum.

Yes, I'm angry. Pissed off that people like you are dead set against basic, obvious, common sense measures, and that other people are influenced by you. Angry that the cavalier disregard that you and others like you display for others' safety has ultimately resulted in the second wave of the pandemic that most of the world is now experiencing. And especially furious that many hundreds, maybe even thousands of people will die in Switzerland, and hundreds of thousands worldwide, because of people like you who seek to make others believe that COVID-19 is nothing to be concerned about.

So stop with the lies and the misinformation. I've had more than enough of it and I'm pretty sure most of the others on EF have too. This is a time to pull together and do whatever we can to help those around us, not a time to try to undermine efforts to contain this pandemic.

Let me be clear: this advice applies equally to other members of EF who engage in similar posting activity with regard to the COVID-19 pandemic.
Quoting an Imperial College estimate is probably not the best of ideas tbh! The same people that forgot to look at T-cells when when investigating covid immunity But let's go all the way back and remind ourselves of what they predicted for number of UK deaths would be in the first wave of the pandemic WITH intervention... 250,000!!!!

The measured figure of new cases is actually 23,000 yesterday someway off the the chart of Patrick Vallance and Chris Whitty (which if I recall you covered your base by saying it WASN'T a prediction when it was announced). Whilst in all likelihood the figure is higher, a magnitude of 400+% higher very probably fits this study into the realms of fantasy together with Professor Neil Fergusons study back in March.

The rest of your post is a lazy smear (accusation of lies and misinformation without any citations) designed to intimidate and not worthy of a response.

P.S. WHO advice is now to avoid lockdowns!! France, hold my beer

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I've had more than enough of it and I'm pretty sure most of the others on EF have too.
I received a number of positive and encouraging messages from members who agree with me on this subject. In a DEBATE, where so much is unknown, you cannot claim ownership of the truth!!

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Let me be clear: this advice applies equally to other members of EF who engage in similar posting activity with regard to the COVID-19 pandemic.
Does this mean everyone should just ignore the big Sweden shaped elephant in the room!?


Last edited by TonyClifton; 29.10.2020 at 08:07.
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  #15414  
Old 29.10.2020, 07:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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Which European leaders are claiming we have "turned the corner", COVID-19 is going away, everything is improving, we have made tremendous progress with the China Virus?

Confident, dashing, kitty grabbing Trump. The captain should keep the moral up even if the ship is sinking
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  #15415  
Old 29.10.2020, 08:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Quoting an Imperial College estimate is probably not the best of ideas tbh! The same people that forgot to look at T-cells when when investigating covid immunity But let's go all the way back and remind ourselves of what they predicted for number of UK deaths would be in the first wave of the pandemic WITH intervention... 250,000!!!!

The measured figure of new cases is actually 23,000 yesterday someway off the the chart of Patrick Vallance and Chris Whitty (which if I recall you covered your base by saying it WASN'T a prediction when it was announced). Whilst in all likelihood the figure is higher, a magnitude of 400+% higher very probably fits this study into the realms of fantasy together with Professor Neil Fergusons study back in March.

The rest of your post is a lazy smear (accusation of lies and misinformation without any citations) designed to intimidate and not worthy of a response.

P.S. WHO advice is now to avoid lockdowns!! France, hold my beer
Your cavalier dismissal of Imperial College does not reduce the number of cases in the real world.

Contrary to your claim that "Imperial College forgot to look at T-cells" there is an Imperial College study showing the lungs of severe COVID-19 patients had accumulated a broad range of ‘hyperactivated’ T cells which increased the severity.

Since you have boarded the T cell train you can no doubt supply us with a full peer-reviewed scientific study about how effective T cells are in contributing to COVID immunity?
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Old 29.10.2020, 08:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm all for free speech and alternative opinions, but
You're all for free speech as long as you agree with the speech right? Very convenient! It's quite entertaining that you wrote such a long and frankly vengeful post now, but where is your similar post when other members of EF were posting lies and misinformation? Oh yes, you actually agree with their view and hence, no need to call them out. In fact, when said members posted lies and misinformation, it was the people calling them out that were banned and received the groans, myself included.

I have a suggestion 22 yards; you've done it before, do it again. You banned me before for disagreeing with you (not this thread and topic). Why don't you ban everyone that has a different opinion? You will bring a Heaven on Earth and you will all bask in your own glory "liking" each others posts and living happily ever after
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  #15417  
Old 29.10.2020, 08:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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So stop with the lies and the misinformation. I've had more than enough of it and I'm pretty sure most of the others on EF have too.This is a time to pull together and do whatever we can to help those around us, not a time to try to undermine efforts to contain this pandemic.
If you think the success of Swiss pandemic control depends on Tony's posts then we are truly _ _ _ _ _ d

I don't agree with a lot of his points, specially on masks, but he does bring a bit of balance to the discussion. No matter how absurd his posts might be, just counter them with better knowledgeable posts. Let better ideas win on merit and not on big tech style selective censorship.
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Old 29.10.2020, 08:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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If you think the success of Swiss pandemic control depends on Tony's posts then we are truly _ _ _ _ _ d

I don't agree with a lot of his points, specially on masks, but he does bring a bit of balance to the discussion. No matter how absurd his posts might be, just counter them with better knowledgeable posts. Let better ideas win on merit and not on big tech style selective censorship.
Apart from my stance on masks, which I accept is controversial (albeit I'm convinced I will be proven right eventually, and there's no evidence to prove they've been effective in fighting this pandemic), what have I said that isn't valid or that is controversial? Lockdowns cause harm? The economy needs preserving? Sweden have managed the pandemic better by preserving their freedoms? That's what I meant by lazy smear, hardly controversial!

On the flip side there's been people on here extolling the virtues of dictators in their ability to handle the coronavirus pandemic
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  #15419  
Old 29.10.2020, 08:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Does this mean everyone should just ignore the big Sweden shaped elephant in the room!?
On the topic of your repeated misinformation.
The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster.

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Last week the number of new weekly coronavirus cases in Sweden increased by 70 percent and the outbreak is approaching "a critical point", said state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell.

Skåne on Tuesday became the second region in Sweden (following Uppsala) to roll out stricter coronavirus measures, including requiring everyone to avoid public transport and indoor venues such as shops, parties, and cultural venues.
Source

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Sweden, whose light-touch pandemic strategy has gained global attention, registered 1,980 new coronavirus cases on Oct. 27, the highest since the start of the pandemic, Health Agency statistics showed on Wednesday.

The increase compares with a high of 1,870 daily cases recorded on Oct. 23. The Health Agency has said the peak during the spring probably ran far higher but went unrecorded due to a lack of testing at the time.

Sweden registered 9 new deaths, taking the total to 5,927 deaths. Sweden’s death rate per capita is several times higher than Nordic neighbours.
Source
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Old 29.10.2020, 08:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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Apart from my stance on masks, which I accept is controversial (albeit I'm convinced I will be proven right eventually, and there's no evidence to prove they've been effective in fighting this pandemic), what have I said that isn't valid or that is controversial? Lockdowns cause harm? The economy needs preserving? Sweden have managed the pandemic better by preserving their freedoms? That's what I meant by lazy smear, hardly controversial!

On the flip side there's been people on here extolling the virtues of dictators in their ability to handle the coronavirus pandemic
You have been given the evidence on masks multiple times but you keep ignoring it
Study: Tennessee hospital rates up most where masks optional

The price of Sweden keeping their freedoms was a death rate five times higher than their neighbours.
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