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Old 29.10.2020, 11:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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I expect this has something to do with many being bitterly disappointed at the measures announced yesterday.
There was never even a hint of doubt that the EF alarmist majority is wiser, better informed and better educated than the Swiss government. How dare you question their wisdom!
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  #15462  
Old 29.10.2020, 11:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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Seems to me that a lot of emotions are running high today, I expect this has something to do with many being bitterly disappointed at the measures announced yesterday.

Just try to remember, for the vast majority of people, you are in control of whether you catch the virus or not. And as Superman would say, statistically speaking, the chances of it affecting you severely are very small indeed!
Indeed it feels like that, people who want to be locked up at home and watch netflix just to feel safe from this flu are complaining the most why there isn't a lockdown.

If you want to feel safe and lock your self up, nobody is forbidding it, you can do it yourself, not go out, stay at home, work or not from home, shop from home.

Luckily for me I don't know anybody this hysterical in real world as some of our EF members here regarding this flu

Leave the rest of us who don't give a toss about this flu to live freely. We can live with the "consequences"
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  #15463  
Old 29.10.2020, 11:47
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Re: Coronavirus

I was talking to a lady in the gym yesterday, she said that they should close down all gyms as it is not safe. Yet there she was training
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  #15464  
Old 29.10.2020, 11:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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I was talking to a lady in the gym yesterday, she said that they should close down all gyms as it is not safe. Yet there she was training
She's most certainly posting on this forum then!

Cognitive dissonance seems to be running especially high around here
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Old 29.10.2020, 11:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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Another good reason why the Swiss government struck the right balance yesterday. London Ambulance service have reported a near doubling of the number of suicide and suicide attempts they're attending compared to this time last year. 37 per day

https://twitter.com/Ldn_Ambulance/st...66876732952581
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Suicide is the single biggest killer of men under 45 in the UK
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43572779

That was on March 2018, somehow a virus that appeared by end of 2019 and public policies to control it make people commit suicide. Anyone on the risk population?
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Old 29.10.2020, 11:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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Seems to me that a lot of emotions are running high today, I expect this has something to do with many being bitterly disappointed at the measures announced yesterday.

Just try to remember, for the vast majority of people, you are in control of whether you catch the virus or not. And as Superman would say, statistically speaking, the chances of it affecting you severely are very small indeed!
It would be a delusion on our part to think that we are in control of whether one catches the virus or not.
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Old 29.10.2020, 11:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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There was never even a hint of doubt that the EF alarmist majority is wiser, better informed and better educated than the Swiss government. How dare you question their wisdom!
Now compare and contrast the Swiss with the better resourced German government .

Or look at the professional advice the Swiss government are getting from their own advisors compared to their actions.
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  #15468  
Old 29.10.2020, 11:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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Now compare and contrast the Swiss with the better resourced German government .

Or look at the professional advice the Swiss government are getting from their own advisors compared to their actions.
There's no debate that you and a few others are better equipped than the poorly resourced, under-educated Swiss government. I never had a doubt in you!
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Old 29.10.2020, 11:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've answered that so many times already, that Sweden claim they were hit harder at the beginning of the pandemic, that Sweden failed in protecting care homes.

Now Denmark has a higher infection rate than Sweden. All the countries you mentioned are doing better than the rest of Europe in spite of having no mandatory mask requirement. More inconvenient reference points!
Sweden did not fail to protect care homes, it was a deliberate policy to only give palliative care so as to reduce the load on hospitals. One March 17 FHM directive to Stockholm hospitals stated any patients over 80 or with a body mass index above 40 should not be admitted to intensive care, because they were less likely to recover.

More misinformation being spread about Denmark vs Sweden.

Yesterday Denmark had 1,017 new cases in a population of 5.8 million and Sweden is running close to 2,000 daily in a population of 10 million.
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Old 29.10.2020, 11:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Now compare and contrast the Swiss with the better resourced German government .

Or look at the professional advice the Swiss government are getting from their own advisors compared to their actions.
No one is saying that these are easy decisions, but governments have to take more into account than just what they are being advised regarding Covid. This is why they are in positions of leadership, in order to take these difficult decisions.

One could just as easily argue, that Germany haven't gone far enough when compared to France. If you compare these two countries the response is different once again. The Swiss have gotten the balance right so far, and I'm confident that they will continue to do so.

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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43572779

That was on March 2018, somehow a virus that appeared by end of 2019 and public policies to control it make people commit suicide. Anyone on the risk population?
Humans are social animals, virtually all Covid measures that have been incorporated so far rely on isolating us. This is the likely reason why suicides have increased. Or have I misunderstood your question?
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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To be fair, being here in itself is a waste of time. We have only ourselves to blame for time-wasting part and lack of self-control. I joined this forum to get info on goat sheds mainly and have ended up wasting so much time on other topics Life in itself is a waste of time, so you are ok (my sinking ship thread)

This Corona does not seem to be a simple 2 + 2 = 4 equation based on currently available info. There are many variables and unknowns so no one can claim that they have access to the ultimate truth on how to deal with this situation.

So, Tony, FMF, V__ etc have not said anything on the same level as flat Earth society. I mean I don't agree with many of their views but it never gets me worked up. Even Chuff who seems to have a vendetta against me does not get me riled up, I find his square personality highly entertaining and sweet

So learn to take/ignore opposing views even if you are convinced about facts/truths being on your side. It will make you a better and mentally stronger person. Life will always be full of people like Tony and Chuff, it is on us to stay mentally centred and calm. It will be a long winter, so we need all types of people.


From your friend
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Well, I come onto this thread mainly to check on status updates, etc. regarding the pandemic -- not to try to repeatedly engage in circular arguments with people. So I feel very frustrated when that ends up happening, and I realized that the best way to prevent that from happening is by using the ignore function. I like to think of it as a useful tool for time management.

So yes, being on the EF is often just a waste of time, but it can also be a place where you can learn and engage in interesting conversations. For myself, at least, being able to use this place without it putting me in a bad mood and/or wasting too much of my time requires some degree of control, on my part, in regard to who I interact with.

I do think there are some people on here who seem to be just "looking for an argument" and who enjoy arguing, and it can be very frustrating to deal with. You can say "X" and someone will try to turn it into "Y" and two hours later, they're still trying to prove you wrong and themselves right.

I have a friend in the UK who is a programmer and once joked to me that he should develop a program that would allow people to argue with their computer -- specially made for people who enjoy arguing.

It's all subjective, anyways, isn't it... how each of us experience this place? For myself, I'm just tired of wasting my time becoming trapped in circular arguments here that lead nowhere and achieve nothing other than proving to be a waste of time.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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The Swiss have gotten the balance right so far, and I'm confident that they will continue to do so.
If we're on opinions then I agree the March response was good, although about a week too late.

This time they are weeks too late with everything. Last week's package was necessary end August/early September, yesterday's sadly still doesn't go far enough given the current case level.

The biggest screw up however (perhaps even you might agree here) has been on the test and trace front. There is nowhere near enough testing being done and they have been criminally slow to bring in rapid testing which has resulted in the tracing being overwhelmed. Here all of Europe should have learnt from Asia and singularly failed to do so.

Still they have to deal with the situation today that they have created and explosive action is needed - hopefully for just a few weeks - to bring cases back down to a level where a hopefully less incompetent test and trace regime can function.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Now compare and contrast the Swiss with the better resourced German government .

Or look at the professional advice the Swiss government are getting from their own advisors compared to their actions.
Nobody is a professional at dealing with the present situation in the round. There is no equivalent in living memory and there are multiple different factors which have to be considered - education, economy, healthcare (both COVID and non-COVID).

At the end of the day, the epidemiologists will tell you to lockdown for the entire year. The economists will tell you to keep it open the entire year etc. etc. Its ultimately a political decision for elected leaders. And not an easy one.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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No one is saying that these are easy decisions, but governments have to take more into account than just what they are being advised regarding Covid. This is why they are in positions of leadership, in order to take these difficult decisions.
Assuming the "more into account" is the economy, the following post nicely covers it. This is becoming the majority view btw.
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I see your point absolutely. There are economists, however, who argue that a limited sharp lock-down is economically better than a long and painful muddling through with scared consumers. That is of course assuming the lock-down works.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:27
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Re: Coronavirus

It's inevitable that we will end up, in one or two weeks, doing a similar lockdown to Germany. The winter will be a story of climbing infection rates neutralised by periodic mini-lockdowns - the aim of which is to relieve the strain on the healthcare system. The peaks will likely trend downwards but will need these lockdowns to allow hospital beds to become available.

I think nobody would really accept the French version of Lockdown#2 but the German version allows things to keep going in some form.

The small businesses most impacted will need help to create ways to survive. Take-out food, perhaps even bars coming with a unique take-out experience. Gyms and certain sport/recreational facilities may find this hard, especially during the winter weather season.

It will get worse before it gets better.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:31
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Re: Coronavirus

I think a larger lockdown is already in the planning stage.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think a larger lockdown is already in the planning stage.
Absolutely. They would not be Swiss if they don't have a plan already. I think they will wait to see if all the cantons will start following the rules and bring this down to a more palatable level. But certainly, a plan is ready.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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Humans are social animals, virtually all Covid measures that have been incorporated so far rely on isolating us. This is the likely reason why suicides have increased. Or have I misunderstood your question?
It was an attempt at black humor. It's curious that the demographic more resistant to the virus (young people) is the most vulnerable to suicide (also young people). I'm not from the UK but a man under 45YO, so I'm joking again about being part of the risk population for suicide, anyone else?

Covid measures mean isolation? It depends. It isolates people that fails at personal relationships and relies on a group to feel good: sports fans, going to church or concerts, the guys who go the same bar but never talk about anything meaningful. Yes those things are not recommended or restricted today, but they were not substitutes of meaningful relationships with other individuals AKA friendship. Friends can still visit and talk to each other. Last April I was surprised how my neighbors shared a coffee or beers from the balcony. Once I saw this I invited some friends to have a beer outside and shout to each other (5-6 meters apart ) during the spring. It was nice. If one has friends, they're there for you and you for them. I don't have many friends around here so that's why not many people come home, but that's not a public policy issue. What I'm sure is that I won't fool myself into believing the people in the bar/church or other people wearing the same team t-shirt are friends.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think a larger lockdown is already in the planning stage.
After watching their press conference I had the impression they're preparing something more drastic, they even mentioned they'll review their strategy depending on how the situation evolves.
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Old 29.10.2020, 12:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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Nobody is a professional at dealing with the present situation in the round. There is no equivalent in living memory and there are multiple different factors which have to be considered - education, economy, healthcare (both COVID and non-COVID).

At the end of the day, the epidemiologists will tell you to lockdown for the entire year. The economists will tell you to keep it open the entire year etc. etc. Its ultimately a political decision for elected leaders. And not an easy one.
15,500-ish posts summed up in two sentences. Can we go home now??
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