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  #15501  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder how it would go down in history, if governments allowed so many people to die in order to try to save the economy... What people would think about that in 20+ years.
Without an economy there will be no health care. People have very short memories.
Very few care about the 25,000 people who starve to death every day, 10,000 of which are children, no need for a vaccine just a stronger economy so they can afford food.
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  #15502  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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The same people that forgot to look at T-cells when when investigating covid immunity
And again, I strongly suggest you read up about HLH and cytokine storm syndromes. There's a tonne of peer reviewed research out there regarding this and it's role in Covid-16 dating back to March, so it most definitely and absolutely IS NOT a factor which was "ignored", it's that you've only just picked up on it. HLH was a major factor in the passing of our 25yr old nephew 3yrs ago. I fear you may be throwing 'T cells' around like a buzz word whilst having precious little knowledge or understanding.

The Lancet
COVID-19: consider cytokine storm syndromes and immunosuppression
Published:March 16, 2020
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...628-0/fulltext

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Of course, I had in mind the major indices. That Luft hansa share does not look so good.
"Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful." W. Buffett.

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Seems to me that a lot of emotions are running high today...
Projecting again
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  #15503  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder how it would go down in history, if governments allowed so many people to die in order to try to save the economy... What people would think about that in 20+ years.
Ah geeeez the dramatics.

Yet the thousands dying every year in wars is no big deal and perfectly "allowed". Young and healthy ones mind you. Let's not even mention the 20'000 that die every damn day from hunger.

Also, no economy=no money=no healthcare or social systems. It's really not all that hard to understand.
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Old 29.10.2020, 13:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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The French didn't have a specified distance from home, except for personal exercise, which was 2km, IIRC. During the first lockdown we were stopped near St. Louis, some 15km from home, having been to a supermarket there. With no supermarket within walking distance there was no obligation to only drive to the closest.

As of tomorrow it looks like they're going back to the previous model as it was up until June. Currently in Alsace but coming back down to CH later today. No idea if we'll be able to cross the border to do our normal shopping in Chatel or not - I hate to think that we'll be stuck with just the little shops in the village or a 20 minute drive to the nearest proper supermarkets in Switzerland.
If you can travel 100km straight line in France like from 11 May they would be amazing. French side go GVA airport is well within that from our winter home.
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Old 29.10.2020, 13:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Without an economy there will be no health care. People have very short memories.
Very few care about the 25,000 people who starve to death every day, 10,000 of which are children, no need for a vaccine just a stronger economy so they can afford food.
Some do care, and the fact is, there is enough food in the world to feed those who are starving. It's not simply a matter of them not being able to afford food. But yes, part of the problem is a lack of empathy.

We produce enough food to feed 10 billion people. So why does hunger still exist?
https://medium.com/@jeremyerdman/we-...t-8086d2657539
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  #15506  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder how it would go down in history, if governments allowed so many people to die in order to try to save the economy... What people would think about that in 20+ years.
This somewhat assumes that the government response to the virus doesn't kill more. For example, in the UK, in the panic to have enough beds to deal with covid, they sent old people into care homes after they were tested positive. There were some 30k excess care home deaths.

I think in the end, government interventions will kill more people than if they did nothing at all.
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  #15507  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Speaking of the French; I'm always thankful that the Swiss government never went the route of French/Spanish-style lockdown, where one can't be more than 500 m - 5 km of their house.
I would be interesting to see how they will control the people from Switzerland doing shopping in France? More border checks? Borders closed for shopping?
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  #15508  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder how it will go down in history, that governments allowed so many people to die, lose their jobs, livelihoods, homes, compromise their academic futures, in order to try to save the elderly... What people would think about that in 20+ years.
It is not just the elderly but all risk groups, you are oversimplifying.

34.9% of the Swiss have high blood pressure.
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  #15509  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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So yes, there is alternative to the failed Swedish way. And no, the Swedish way is not what the WHO recommend.


https://fortune.com/2020/08/31/swede...al-death-rate/

https://www.theweek.co.uk/107955/cop...h-organisation

Reader discretion, the above links could be interpreted as lies and misinformation
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  #15510  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:00
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Re: Coronavirus

Scientists warn of new coronavirus variant spreading across Europe

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A coronavirus variant that originated in Spanish farm workers has spread rapidly through much of Europe since the summer, and now accounts for the majority of new Covid-19 cases in several countries — and more than 80 per cent in the UK.
University of Basel press release: https://www.unibas.ch/en/News-Events...mmer-2020.html
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  #15511  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder how it would go down in history, if governments allowed so many people to die in order to try to save the economy... What people would think about that in 20+ years.
To be honest - it depends how many people and what the cost is. Its not a pleasant concept, but you have to put a price on (years of) a life - e.g. when you are buying expensive new patented medicines.
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  #15512  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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She can't continue to pay the staff while being open due to the government restrictions and lack of customers. She also can't afford to close her business. They need help
In the form of a bailout. Which is exactly what I described. Not sure why you are trying to characterize it as something other than a bailout.

And I agree, if the government pushes a restriction they should compensate these small businesses for loss.

What irks me more are the bailouts for the big companies who had the resources and money to build up buffers but instead wasted them on buying back shares.

For those complaining about putting economy above health, on a small scale we see this business owner doing the same. Instead of closing down her business to protect herself and others, she keeps it open due to financial considerations. This is a perfectly normal tradeoff. She needs to make money and put food on the table. In the same situation, we would probably do the same.
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  #15513  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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... just to feel safe from this flu are complaining the most why there isn't a lockdown....

... as some of our EF members here regarding this flu...

...Leave the rest of us who don't give a toss about this flu to live freely....
No, COVID-19 Is Not the Flu

There’s a refrain among some skeptics that “COVID-19 is just the flu,” which is not at all accurate.
Q&A with Andrew Pekosz | October 20, 2020
https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/artic...t-the-flu.html
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  #15514  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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https://fortune.com/2020/08/31/swede...al-death-rate/

https://www.theweek.co.uk/107955/cop...h-organisation

Reader discretion, the above links could be interpreted as lies and misinformation
You are still not reading your outdated links!
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The pace of new infections and deaths has slowed markedly since the end of June.

In contrast, other governments around the world are once again imposing stricter measures amid a resurgence in cases.
And now there is a resurgence in cases in Sweden and so they are also again imposing stricter measures.
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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It is not just the elderly but all risk groups, you are oversimplifying.

34.9% of the Swiss have high blood pressure.
We (younger people) are being told on one hand that we are "still at risk", and on the other that we won't be vaccinated until most likely 2022. By which time most will be naturally infected.

The data are pretty clear that advanced age is a far, far, far, bigger risk than slightly high blood pressure, being a bit overweight etc. Its higher even (at least by the time of being in ones 80s) than having serious lung conditions like MS.

The reality is - if you are under 40, your risks are minimal. At your age (IIRC you are in your 70s), influenza is far more of a risk than covid is to people at my age. By at least an order of magnitude. The additional reality is that the (economic) needs of our age group (and especially those a bit younger - in their 20s) are not being considered. On a personal level, I'm doing my best, but I have some sympathy with others who aren't given that older economically inactive people are still not being asked to shield. Obviously I know its not possible for 100% of older people, but for most it is. Why isn't it happening - because you guys vote...

Too many older people just want us to do all the heavy lifting and experience all the pain while they live life pretty close to normally.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 29.10.2020 at 14:19.
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Ah geeeez the dramatics.

Yet the thousands dying every year in wars is no big deal and perfectly "allowed". Young and healthy ones mind you. Let's not even mention the 20'000 that die every damn day from hunger.

Also, no economy=no money=no healthcare or social systems. It's really not all that hard to understand.
A war is not a pandemic. Hunger is not a pandemic. Do you not understand the practical difference between hunger, war and pandemics... especially when it affects countries that do not even generally suffer from war and starvation-related deaths in anything approaching significant numbers?

Usually I would consider that kind of question as an insult to someone's intelligence, but in your case it really doesn't seem to be.
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:15
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Re: Coronavirus

I don’t think everyone is taking this seriously. My wife’s employer for example. During the first wave they sent just about everyone to work from home, fell over themselves having the IT systems in place, etc.

This time, one needs an excuse to work from home and frontaliers cannot access the IT systems for security reasons. If they don’t come in, they don’t get paid.
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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The reality is - if you are under 40, your risks are minimal.

Uhm no, too many under 40s are at risk. Imagine kids with asthma, people with diabetes, cancer etc etc.
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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Uhm no, too many under 40s are at risk. Imagine kids with asthma, people with diabetes, cancer etc etc.
The numbers on this assertion don't hold up.

Number of deaths from COVID of people in their 20s in Switzerland. Zero. Out of the (from a back of the envelope calculation) 80,000 or so people in their 20s in Switzerland who have asthma.

It increases your risk sure - but from such a tiny base that you are still at a low risk. It might turn someone in their 50s or 60s from being low/medium risk to being medium/high, but really will not drive any significant mortality for millenials and Gen Z.

Same for diabetes. Increases risk of death by c. 2-4 times according to https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7456750/. Thats the equivalent of being c. 5-10 years older. Your 25 year old with diabetes then looks like a healthy 30-35 year old from a risk perspective. I.e. still low.

A total of 6 people under 40 have died in Switzerland of covid. vs about 2000 over 40. It's a disease that basically pretty much exclusively kills older people. These secondary indicators are really only useful in people over a certain age.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 29.10.2020 at 14:55.
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  #15520  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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We produce enough food to feed 10 billion people. So why does hunger still exist?
Because the places that suffer from hunger have for ages ignored PRECISELY "the economy" and haven't provided the physical and institutional infrastructure to allow for an efficient food production AND supply systems. Delivering a ton of corn in the US costs you a few cents, delivering a ton of corn in some places in Sub-Saharan Africa is virtually impossible.
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