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Old 29.10.2020, 13:39
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Because the places that suffer from hunger have for ages ignored PRECISELY "the economy" and haven't provided the physical and institutional infrastructure to allow for an efficient food production AND supply systems. Delivering a ton of corn in the US costs you a few cents, delivering a ton of corn in some places in Sub-Saharan Africa is virtually impossible.
The root causes mainly go back to colonialism. But that's another discussion.
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  #15522  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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To be fair, being here in itself is a waste of time. We have only ourselves to blame for time-wasting part and lack of self-control. I joined this forum to get info on goat sheds mainly and have ended up wasting so much time on other topics Life in itself is a waste of time, so you are ok (my sinking ship thread)

This Corona does not seem to be a simple 2 + 2 = 4 equation based on currently available info. There are many variables and unknowns so no one can claim that they have access to the ultimate truth on how to deal with this situation.

So, Tony, FMF, V__ etc have not said anything on the same level as flat Earth society. I mean I don't agree with many of their views but it never gets me worked up. Even Chuff who seems to have a vendetta against me does not get me riled up, I find his square personality highly entertaining and sweet

So learn to take/ignore opposing views even if you are convinced about facts/truths being on your side. It will make you a better and mentally stronger person. Life will always be full of people like Tony and Chuff, it is on us to stay mentally centred and calm. It will be a long winter, so we need all types of people.


From your friend
TTYL
My friend TTYL,

I'm on board with your message (hoping that's dissociated from your sinking ship...!). I've no issue with alternative views and opinions. I do have a major beef with calculated lies and repeated refusal to accept facts, especially when lives are at stake.

What TonyClifton et al. are spreading around the forum is inherently dangerous and I believe we have a duty to shut it down. Not everybody has access to or an understanding of the science and proven facts about COVID-19 (TonyClifton is clearly one of these, at least with regard to understanding), and it's important not to let them be seduced by uninformed or outright fallacious statements on the subject which, if adopted and followed, would result in prolongation and worsening of this pandemic.

Last edited by Guest; 29.10.2020 at 15:10. Reason: Obvious typos
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  #15523  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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The root causes mainly go back to colonialism. But that's another discussion.
North Korea was a colony? Russia in the 80s was a colony? China in the 60s was a colony? Ireland during the potato famine was a colony? Ethiopia was a colony?

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I've no issue with alternative views and opinions. I do have a major beef with calculated lies and repeated refusal to accept facts, especially when lives are at stake.
And yet, you have not said anything to Pancakes when she was spreading lies and repeatedly refused to accept facts Maybe chill with the attempt to claim the moral high ground, you're failing.
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Old 29.10.2020, 13:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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Number of deaths from COVID of people in their 20s in Switzerland. Zero. Out of the (from a back of the envelope calculation) 80,000 or so people in their 20s in Switzerland who have asthma.
Pregnant women are classed as 'at especially high risk'.

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...-menschen.html
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Old 29.10.2020, 13:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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Marton has been on my ignore list for months now so I don't see anything that he/she posts.
Why am I not surprised... I am sure it's much more comfortable to spread your lies in the name of "debate" when there's no opposition to present the opposing (factual) view.

Now where have I heard that argument before...?
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  #15526  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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Pregnant women are classed as 'at especially high risk'.

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...-menschen.html
Which is very cautious as the risk of death isn't significantly higher than for non-pregnant women of the same age (although hospitalisation is - possibly in part because of understandable caution when you are pregnant) https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-covid-19.html

The data are very very clear that the risk of death is minute if you are under 40, for the vast majority of people. If you an adult under 30, verging on non-existent.

These side effects are useful for determining risk for people like my dad. He's 58 which would put him at a lowish risk, but he has quite bad asthma. That puts him at a medium risk. My little brother is 26. He would be very low irrespective of whether he has asthma or not. My grandmother in her upper half of her 80s is at very high risk even though she does not have asthma.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 29.10.2020 at 14:02.
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  #15527  
Old 29.10.2020, 13:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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Pregnant women are classed as 'at especially high risk'.

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...-menschen.html

Stupid question: weren't they before?
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  #15528  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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Stupid question: weren't they before?
I think they were high risk. Then not. Then high risk again. Now apparently new at especially high risk.
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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Which is very cautious as the risk of death isn't significantly higher than for non-pregnant women of the same age (although hospitalisation is - possibly in part because of understandable caution when you are pregnant) https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-covid-19.html
True, but in the cited scientific paper, the authors also mention that pregnant women with Covid-19 are more likely to be admitted to ICU. I'm not sure how this intervention will affect the child.

"These findings are similar to those from a recent study in Sweden, which found that pregnant women with COVID-19 were five times more likely to be admitted to the ICU and four times more like to receive mechanical ventilation than were nonpregnant women."
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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True, but in the cited scientific paper, the authors also mention that pregnant women with Covid-19 are more likely to be admitted to ICU. I'm not sure how this intervention will affect the child.

"These findings are similar to those from a recent study in Sweden, which found that pregnant women with COVID-19 were five times more likely to be admitted to the ICU and four times more like to receive mechanical ventilation than were nonpregnant women."
That's nevertheless 5x and 4x very small numbers. Best to be cautious around pregnant women though so its sensible to really isolate as much as you can in such a situation. I'm not claiming that there is no risk whatsoever for these conditions which would clearly be untrue - just trying to put in into perspective as I think that people take them overly seriously compared to increased age.

Ill shut up now as I think i've made my point.
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  #15531  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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My friend TTYL,

I'm on board with your message (hoping that's dissociated from your sinking ship...!). I've no issue with alternative views and opinions. I do have a major beef with calculated lies and repeated refusal to accept facts, especially when lives are at stake.

What TonyClifton et al. are spreading around the forum is inherently dangerous and I believe we have a duty to shut it down. Not everybody has access to or an understanding of the science and proven facts about COVID-19 (TonyClifton is clearly one of these, at least with regard to understanding), and t's important not to let them be seduced by uniformed or outright fallacious statements on the subject which, if adopted and followed, would result in prolongation and worsening of this pandemic.

Hehe sorry but this reminds me of the proposal in my home country to send people who disagree with the government's policies to a penal colony near the arctic circle.


There are truths, lies, half truths and omissions floating about in this thread. Even with the best of intentions, people on either side of the debt are likely to be missing part of the picture. However you are out of line suggesting that one side is patently false and spreading lies. Perhaps your home culture doesn't encourage debate or dissenting opinions but here we have people like Drs Raoult or Perronne who take a very different view of the subject. Those that wish to censor them are doing an incredible disservice to science and indeed humanity.
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  #15532  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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These side effects are useful for determining risk for people like my dad. He's 58 which would put him at a lowish risk, but he has quite bad asthma. That puts him at a medium risk. My little brother is 26. He would be very low irrespective of whether he has asthma or not. My grandmother in her upper half of her 80s is very high even though she does not have asthma.
Asthma is now mostly not on the list of risk factors. Could even be that allergic asthma is protective - due to the lower level of ACE-2 cells asthmatics have and which covid uses to attack. Being studied and early results look like confirming.
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  #15533  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:22
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North Korea was a colony? Russia in the 80s was a colony? China in the 60s was a colony? Ireland during the potato famine was a colony? Ethiopia was a colony?
I said root causes, not current. Colonialism is the historic source of the problems still faced today for many ex colonies, particularly in Africa.

Oh and to answer your questions: yes no (but it was the 90s where Russia was bad), yes (not in the 60s), yes and yes.
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  #15534  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Which is very cautious as the risk of death isn't significantly higher than for non-pregnant women of the same age (although hospitalisation is - possibly in part because of understandable caution when you are pregnant) https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-covid-19.html

The data are very very clear that the risk of death is minute if you are under 40, for the vast majority of people. If you an adult under 30, verging on non-existent.

These side effects are useful for determining risk for people like my dad. He's 58 which would put him at a lowish risk, but he has quite bad asthma. That puts him at a medium risk. My little brother is 26. He would be very low irrespective of whether he has asthma or not. My grandmother in her upper half of her 80s is at very high risk even though she does not have asthma.
Focussing on death is cherry-picking!

In the US
  • Nearly 30% of confirmed US coronavirus cases have been among people between 20–44
  • that age group accounted for 20% of hospitalizations
  • and 12% of ICU admissions

Source

Sick enough to warrant hospitalizations does not sound comfortable to me so be careful what you wish for
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:25
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Re: Coronavirus

Ah and the fact that this level of polarization comes at the expense of decent dialogue is not worrying at all. Even if we were to assume there are "sides" - which there are not - at what point did it become ok for one side to accuse the other to do nothing but spread lies (and vice versa) when there is literally no such thing as one single truth out there given the universal disagreement on pretty much everything?

And they said something like the 1933 polarization could "never happen again". Well open your eyes. The underlying cause might be somewhat different, but the patterns are exactly the same.
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  #15536  
Old 29.10.2020, 14:29
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Re: Coronavirus

"Staff shortage: Nursing staff who would have to be in corona quarantine should continue to work at Aargau hospitals.

Cantonal doctor Yvonne Hummel allows the use of nurses who would have to be in corona quarantine after close contact with infected people if there is an acute shortage of staff. The hospitals can decide on this individually."

https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/aarga...iten-139639552

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Old 29.10.2020, 14:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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Focussing on death is cherry-picking!
You post a now-debunked study from March to make a point that someone else is cherry-picking

This thread is better than a Trump tweet now!

p.s. the actual study, if you ever bothered to read it, was actually discussed here much earlier and it currently has a massive note on the first page THIS REPORT HAS BEEN CORRECTED
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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You post a now-debunked study from March to make a point that someone else is cherry-picking

This thread is better than a Trump tweet now!

p.s. the actual study, if you ever bothered to read it, was actually discussed here much earlier and it currently has a massive note on the first page THIS REPORT HAS BEEN CORRECTED
I don't know if you participate in research, but a note saying this report has been corrected generally means you forgot to add a citation, or you mislabeled a column in a table and not that the data is fundamentally flawed.

An example:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/...cid=mm6935a6_w
THIS REPOR HAS BEEN CORRECTED: "on page 1078, in Table 2, under “Laboratory test,” the test listed in the sixth row should have read “CRP, peak (mg/dL)."
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder how it would go down in history, if governments allowed so many people to die in order to try to save the economy... What people would think about that in 20+ years.
The reality 'your kill the economy to kill the virus' policy could well be that 20 years down the road no one would know or care - as we would be back in the stone age.

No electricity, no food supply leading to wars and tribal fighting. Power seized by the few with the support great wealth can buy. The rest of us eating grass and roots.

Those who died 20 years earlier of Covid would be the lucky ones...
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Old 29.10.2020, 14:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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My friend TTYL,

I'm on board with your message (hoping that's dissociated from your sinking ship...!). I've no issue with alternative views and opinions. I do have a major beef with calculated lies and repeated refusal to accept facts, especially when lives are at stake.

What TonyClifton et al. are spreading around the forum is inherently dangerous and I believe we have a duty to shut it down. Not everybody has access to or an understanding of the science and proven facts about COVID-19 (TonyClifton is clearly one of these, at least with regard to understanding), and t's important not to let them be seduced by uniformed or outright fallacious statements on the subject which, if adopted and followed, would result in prolongation and worsening of this pandemic.
I'm still scratching my head as to how, during your deeply insulting personal attack on me, you accused me of spreading "lies and misinformation" and then referred to a modelled study to prove your point as fact literally doing the very same thing you accuse me of!

Unfortunately this is a continuing theme that has run from day one of this pandemic, which is ultimately controlling the narrative.

Some of the most terrible, fearmongering, bad science lies have been posted by the likes of Pancakes et al, but because they're considered in your eyes to be on the "right" side of the argument, they are simply allowed to carry on without caution.

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Why am I not surprised... I am sure it's much more comfortable to spread your lies in the name of "debate" when there's no opposition to present the opposing (factual) view.

Now where have I heard that argument before...?
I enjoy debate and discussion, however when arguments come down to semantics and nit picking in order to try and get the "win", then it's no longer worth engaging. There are certain people on this forum who for whatever reason seem to hold a special status whereby they can nitpick, provoke, be passive aggressive, use offensive language, be rude and get away with it without any sort of reprimand. It is a far better user experience to simply mute such people.
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