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  #15541  
Old 29.10.2020, 15:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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"Staff shortage: Nursing staff who would have to be in corona quarantine should continue to work at Aargau hospitals.

Cantonal doctor Yvonne Hummel allows the use of nurses who would have to be in corona quarantine after close contact with infected people if there is an acute shortage of staff. The hospitals can decide on this individually."

https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/aarga...iten-139639552

I don't understand this. Is the regular procedure that the nurse has to quarantine after treating a Covid patient??? Or does the quarantine refer to private contacts? So this story feels like blown up to me.
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Old 29.10.2020, 15:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't know if you participate in research, but a note saying this report has been corrected generally means you forgot to add a citation, or you mislabeled a column in a table and not that the data is fundamentally flawed.
Data is not flawed, this is a very respectable study, however it's just not representative because:

1. Its from March
2. It's a sample of 508 patients US patients
3. The actual article is click-bait which doesn't correspond to the study findings, which are:

"Among 121 patients known to have been admitted to an
ICU, 7% of cases were reported among adults ≥85 years,
46% among adults aged 65–84 years, 36% among adults
aged 45–64 years, and 12% among adults aged 20–44 years
and no ICU admissions were reported among persons
aged ≤19 years



What I was countering is not the study itself, by no means, I was challenging Marton who said HickvonFrick was cherry-picking and he "proved" his point with another cherry-picking example
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  #15543  
Old 29.10.2020, 15:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't understand this. Is the regular procedure that the nurse has to quarantine after treating a Covid patient??? Or does the quarantine refer to private contacts? So this story feels like blown up to me.
Nope, it's about medical personnel with a covid19 positive test results with mild symptoms. NEar the bottom of the linked article:

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Further measures for Covid-19-positive caregivers

She relies on the recommendations of the national center for infection prevention. A document was published on its website on October 23, in which it says about nurses with corona symptoms and a pending test: "If the general condition allows (mild symptoms, no fever or cough), it is possible to continue work."

Even carers with a positive test can work according to the recommendations if they do not feel sick and do not have a fever. For Covid-19-positive nurses, other measures are recommended in addition to masks and distance: separate lunch or coffee breaks, restriction of direct patient contact, or work on Covid-19 wards.

However, this is not yet permitted in Aargau - corona-positive carers have to be in isolation, as Hummel says. Currently, the relief only exists for asymptomatic medical professionals - i.e. potentially infected people without a test result.

The issue here is that the federal recommendations say that in case of emergency medical workers with positive covid results can work if no symptoms are present...........but so far positives are sent home to quarantine.
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Old 29.10.2020, 15:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't understand this. Is the regular procedure that the nurse has to quarantine after treating a Covid patient??? Or does the quarantine refer to private contacts? So this story feels like blown up to me.
No, they dont have to quarantine after treating a covid patient.
Same quarantine rules apply to nurses as for the rest of us.
However they could be asked to work in case of staff shortage despite normally having to quarantine in the case of unprotected possible exposure (private or professional)

The article quotes the instructons given by the Aargauer cantonal doctor.

"Hummel writes that even employees who had close contact with a corona infected person could continue to work in the event of an acute staff shortage as long as they did not show any symptoms of the disease"

Last edited by Sigh; 29.10.2020 at 15:30. Reason: Added info
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Old 29.10.2020, 15:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm still scratching my head as to how, during your deeply insulting personal attack on me, you accused me of spreading "lies and misinformation" and then referred to a modelled study to prove your point as fact literally doing the very same thing you accuse me of!
Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that "modelling studies" are not scientific and based on evidence? Are you saying that you know better than the scientists who have produced their estimate? Furthermore, are you saying (not here, but in your post ridiculing a "magnitude of 400+% higher (than 23,000)" -- your maths is completely wrong, by the way) that the ca. 23,000 cases confirmed per day through testing represent all of the cases, i.e. that every case is diagnosed?

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Some of the most terrible, fearmongering, bad science lies have been posted by the likes of Pancakes et al, but because they're considered in your eyes to be on the "right" side of the argument, they are simply allowed to carry on without caution.
I don't believe you're correct about information that Pancakes has posted. Please show me what you believe to be false.

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It is a far better user experience to simply mute such people.
A far better experience for TonyClifton, I think you mean. It's always easier to "debate" when you can ignore people who call out your BS.
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  #15546  
Old 29.10.2020, 15:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm still scratching my head as to how, during your deeply insulting personal attack on me, you accused me of spreading "lies and misinformation" and then referred to a modelled study to prove your point as fact literally doing the very same thing you accuse me of!

Unfortunately this is a continuing theme that has run from day one of this pandemic, which is ultimately controlling the narrative.

Some of the most terrible, fearmongering, bad science lies have been posted by the likes of Pancakes et al, but because they're considered in your eyes to be on the "right" side of the argument, they are simply allowed to carry on without caution.



I enjoy debate and discussion, however when arguments come down to semantics and nit picking in order to try and get the "win", then it's no longer worth engaging. There are certain people on this forum who for whatever reason seem to hold a special status whereby they can nitpick, provoke, be passive aggressive, use offensive language, be rude and get away with it without any sort of reprimand. It is a far better user experience to simply mute such people.
You are spreading misinformation, you claim masks don't work.

Now, let me say this - I don't think masks stop the spread of the virus. But I do believe in the science that says it at least slows it down.
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  #15547  
Old 29.10.2020, 15:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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But I do believe in the science that says it at least slows it down.
Absolutely, we can see everywhere where masks have been obligatory for months, there is no corona virus around
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Old 29.10.2020, 15:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't believe you're correct about information that Pancakes has posted. Please show me what you believe to be false.
There you go:

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Also, yes, there is already some evidence emerging that the COVID virus is mutating to become more lethal
Btw, this completely false "evidence" has been debunked quite a few times even by the CNN, but she kept on insisting that this is the case and you have ignored for quite a while.
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  #15549  
Old 29.10.2020, 15:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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Which is very cautious as the risk of death isn't significantly higher than for non-pregnant women of the same age (although hospitalisation is - possibly in part because of understandable caution when you are pregnant) https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-covid-19.html
Death isn't the only risk...

'Data compiled by PAHO showed that 28,387 cases of COVID-19 in pregnant women have been reported by 10 countries, with 356 deaths reported from January to August 11.'
https://www.paho.org/en/news/21-8-20...evere-covid-19
'Pregnant women with COVID-19 are less likely than non-pregnant women with COVID-19 to have symptoms, but more likely to need intensive care if severely ill – according to new findings' 1 September 2020
https://www.who.int/news/item/01-09-...d-their-babies

'People at high risk (clinically extremely vulnerable)
People at high risk from coronavirus include people who:
have had an organ transplant
are having chemotherapy or antibody treatment for cancer, including immunotherapy
are having an intense course of radiotherapy (radical radiotherapy) for lung cancer
are having targeted cancer treatments that can affect the immune system (such as protein kinase inhibitors or PARP inhibitors)
have blood or bone marrow cancer (such as leukaemia, lymphoma or myeloma)
have had a bone marrow or stem cell transplant in the past 6 months, or are still taking immunosuppressant medicine
have been told by a doctor they have a severe lung condition (such as cystic fibrosis, severe asthma or severe COPD)
have a condition that means they have a very high risk of getting infections (such as SCID or sickle cell)
are taking medicine that makes them much more likely to get infections (such as high doses of steroids or immunosuppressant medicine)'

'People at moderate risk (clinically vulnerable)
People at moderate risk from coronavirus include people who:
are 70 or older
have a lung condition that's not severe (such as asthma, COPD, emphysema or bronchitis)
have heart disease (such as heart failure)
have diabetes
have chronic kidney disease
have liver disease (such as hepatitis)
have a condition affecting the brain or nerves (such as Parkinson's disease, motor neurone disease, multiple sclerosis or cerebral palsy)
have a condition that means they have a high risk of getting infections
are taking medicine that can affect the immune system (such as low doses of steroids)
are very obese (a BMI of 40 or above)
are pregnant '
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/corona...m-coronavirus/
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  #15550  
Old 29.10.2020, 15:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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There you go:



Btw, this completely false "evidence" has been debunked quite a few times even by the CNN, but she kept on insisting that this is the case and you have ignored for quite a while.
TBF that was more unintentionally misleading than "fake news" - because she insisted on very confusingly using a term to mean something different to what it normally means in the context of diseases.
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  #15551  
Old 29.10.2020, 15:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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Data is not flawed, this is a very respectable study, however it's just not representative because:

1. Its from March
2. It's a sample of 508 patients US patients
3. The actual article is click-bait which doesn't correspond to the study findings, which are:

"Among 121 patients known to have been admitted to an
ICU, 7% of cases were reported among adults ≥85 years,
46% among adults aged 65–84 years, 36% among adults
aged 45–64 years, and 12% among adults aged 20–44 years
and no ICU admissions were reported among persons
aged ≤19 years


What I was countering is not the study itself, by no means, I was challenging Marton who said HickvonFrick was cherry-picking and he "proved" his point with another cherry-picking example
With those points I agree, thanks for the clarification.
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  #15552  
Old 29.10.2020, 16:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that "modelling studies" are not scientific and based on evidence? Are you saying that you know better than the scientists who have produced their estimate? Furthermore, are you saying (not here, but in your post ridiculing a "magnitude of 400+% higher (than 23,000)" -- your maths is completely wrong, by the way) that the ca. 23,000 cases confirmed per day through testing represent all of the cases, i.e. that every case is diagnosed?

I don't believe you're correct about information that Pancakes has posted. Please show me what you believe to be false.

A far better experience for TonyClifton, I think you mean. It's always easier to "debate" when you can ignore people who call out your BS.
You know, I've just asked one of your moderator colleagues to reopen the Jeremy Corbyn antisemitism/Hezbollah thread (link below) in light of today's announcement of his suspension from the Labour Party. It's funny because, reading back few the last few pages of that thread, the lines of attack the members took were similar to those we've seen on this thread. They were vicious, personal, accusations of misrepresenting facts and lying etc. It was also around this time that I blocked a number of other people for precisely the reasons that I outlined above.

I had forgotten, but reading back today, in light of the announcement, I now feel pretty vindicated. Perhaps there will be a similar moment in a year or twos time regarding Covid? Who knows

To address your points. Modelled studies are that, estimates, they don't prove that there are 100,000 cases. The BBC link you posted even stated this "although there is some uncertainty in the figure"
I said that there are 23,000 cases recorded, I then went on to say that there are likely more actual cases (you didn't quote this)
I asked you to provide examples of misinformation I've posted. You ask the same now for Pancakes. I'm not inclined to scroll through 100s pages but as there's corroboration, it should be enough to get the picture. EDIT: Thanks gaburko! I'd have never found that!

Anyway, I feel I'm probably wasting my "breath" with you so probably best to leave it there.

https://www.englishforum.ch/internat...hezbollah.html
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Data is not flawed, this is a very respectable study, however it's just not representative because:

1. Its from March
2. It's a sample of 508 patients US patients
3. The actual article is click-bait which doesn't correspond to the study findings, which are:

"Among 121 patients known to have been admitted to an
ICU, 7% of cases were reported among adults ≥85 years,
46% among adults aged 65–84 years, 36% among adults
aged 45–64 years, and 12% among adults aged 20–44 years
and no ICU admissions were reported among persons
aged ≤19 years


What I was countering is not the study itself, by no means, I was challenging Marton who said HickvonFrick was cherry-picking and he "proved" his point with another cherry-picking example
OK, some more recent numbers up to October 17 - 30% of US COVID hospitalizations are age group 18-49.
Name:  AgeGroupHosp.jpg
Views: 273
Size:  64.3 KB
Graph is hard to read so the source

You are correct, my original post "that age group accounted for 20% of hospitalizations" now looks too low.

Also this graph from the same source.
Name:  COVID-NET_AssociatedHospitalizationsImage.jpg
Views: 286
Size:  112.1 KB
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Marton has been on my ignore list for months now so I don't see anything that he/she posts. Ironically for the reason, amongst many others of posting links to Time magzine articles and presenting them as confirmation/fact when no one takes Time magazine seriously anymore.

Baboon's posts I responded to, and as you can see, nothing that I've said is either a lie nor misinformation.
Interesting when some people say you should be retained here so diverse views can be read that you block diverse views. Hypocritical?
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Btw, this completely false "evidence" has been debunked quite a few times even by the CNN, but she kept on insisting that this is the case and you have ignored for quite a while.
Can’t you just give it a rest?
What is the point of harping on and in about something. We get it, you don’t agree with what she said but I don’t think you need to bring it up all the time in this thread.
Go and find another bone to chew on, you’ve chewed this one to death.
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  #15556  
Old 29.10.2020, 16:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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Can’t you just give it a rest?
22 yards asked where did she spread misinformation. I provided the example. Factual. Whether you like it or not is really something I am not concerned with.
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:22
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Re: Coronavirus

Dr David Nabarro is one of the World Health Organization’s special envoys on Covid and is now reversing his position and says national lockdowns should be used as a “reserve” measure to control coronavirus.

He also said lockdown restrictions in the north of England appeared to be slowing the spread of the virus in some places.

Source
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:23
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Re: Coronavirus

Anyone who still doubts the long-term effects of Covid, including mental health, should take a hard look at this thread
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:30
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Re: Coronavirus

The WHO "revises" its "opinion" every three seconds, so whatever. No one's listening anyway, as I already pointed out 2 or 3 weeks ago. Their position is whatever the political narrative du jour demands as they're nowhere near as neutral as people think. If anyone had actually listened to the WHO, there would have NEVER been any border closures or lockdowns anywhere, most certainly not after around January 10 when it was already clear this particular virus was all over the world. So why would anyone listen now? Tomorrow they'll say something else yet again. As they all do. Suggest to regularly take screenshots from particular sources, looking back two days, seven weeks or eight months is tragically hilarious - zero logic, zero consistency, but of course in this constant information overload, 99% of people completely forget what they read just 5 minutes ago.

Edit: there is actually no real revision of the WHO's opinion, by and large the same as has been said before - no lockdowns, certainly not nationally. And it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you force everyone into home prison, the virus will temporarily stall and not spread. Emphasis on temporarily. Which is the whole point that this "side" of the argument makes - you solve nothing, you just delay, and in the delay, you create a thousand other issues. Again house cat-elephant.

But anyway, the point that clearly no one's listening to the WHO still stands.

Last edited by Samaire13; 29.10.2020 at 16:48.
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Anyone who still doubts the long-term effects of Covid, including mental health, should take a hard look at this thread
Yes, indeed This thread grows faster than the infection rate in Schwyz!
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