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Old 29.10.2020, 19:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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So if someone started selling a fake vaccine in Asia, for example, you would post that as a reason not to have the vaccination?

In the case of the masks though, you're wrong - the masks made by hand in West Asia as depicted in your photo would still offer a degree of protection against this corona virus compared with not wearing a mask.
It's far more dangerous to use/reuse these masks or to get vaccine that is rushed on the market like never before. I'm "taking my chances" by refusing both
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  #15582  
Old 29.10.2020, 19:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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....................
Btw, can we really stop this specific sub-fight? It's useless, obviously untrue and it's just annoying everyone else?
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in a nutshell:


Pancakes: I have some EVIDENCE that the virus MIGHT BECOME more lethal IN THE FUTURE!

22 yards: yeah, sound logic, makes sense

I love this thread!
ftfy

Seems you are the one who cannot stop?

Meanwhile, US will cross 100,000 daily coronavirus cases over the next few weeks, former FDA head Scott Gottlieb says.
Gottlieb said he doesn’t expect to see a slowdown in the outbreak until Americans change their behavior by going out less and wearing face masks regularly.
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  #15583  
Old 29.10.2020, 19:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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So if someone started selling a fake vaccine in Asia, for example, you would post that as a reason not to have the vaccination?

In the case of the masks though, you're wrong - the masks made by hand in West Asia as depicted in your photo would still offer a degree of protection against this corona virus compared with not wearing a mask.
Im not sure putting something that is designed to trap virus particles touched by tons of people from a badly infected country with no ppl around your face is a great idea.
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  #15584  
Old 29.10.2020, 19:49
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Re: Coronavirus

Brief summary of this thread (more or less):

Corona is serious. Is it a beer? Haha. No, it's going to kill us all. Or some of us. Or it's nothing at all. Or it's a government conspiracy.
No, not fake. It's for real, and people are ill. Some are dying.
You lot who think it is serious are being hysterical fearmongerers.
Wear your masks.
What? Masks are silly.
Look at Sweden.
There are several degrees of lockdown.
Lockdown will be our saving.
Lockdown will kill us.
Or at least, it won't kill me, but someone, hopefully you, because I can't stand the way you're posting.
Here's a scientific journal which proves it.
Don't you know that those studies were flawed, are old, or were sponsored by an interested party?
Wear a mask.
Look at Sweden.
Stop already with the angstiness about masks.
Look at this scientific study about masks.
Oh, look, the Swiss Federal Council has decided on new measures.
I told you they would. They ought to have done so long ago.
Lockdowns and measures are having serious economic consequences.
I told you so.
Look at the figures.
Yes, they're nothing like you predicted, here, here and here.
Don't believe the statistics, didn't you learn that?
Oh, yes, I've studied xyz and work as pqr, so I'm an expert.
Look at Sweden.
No, look at the UK. Or at the USA. Things are bad there.
Look at Switzerland.
I have friends who are at the forefront of things, and they're saying, loud and clear, that this is no playground.
You're talking rubbish again.
Well, I'll block you. The lies are a waste of time.
Repeat, from the beginning, n times.
Iteration, again.
I miss my family.
I miss decorum.
I miss my forum.
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  #15585  
Old 29.10.2020, 19:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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So anything constructive against masks is trolling?

Millions of masks sold in Swiss shops have been found inadequate for use
Did you, of all people, just use the word constructive in a sentence?
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  #15586  
Old 29.10.2020, 19:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's far more dangerous to use/reuse these masks or to get vaccine that is rushed on the market like never before. I'm "taking my chances" by refusing both
Haven't you heard of 'herd immunity'? I thought that's what you were constantly banging on about?
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  #15587  
Old 29.10.2020, 19:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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Im not sure putting something that is designed to trap virus particles touched by tons of people from a badly infected country with no ppl around your face is a great idea.
It isn't, but people have done worse things in this hysteria
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  #15588  
Old 29.10.2020, 19:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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You are spreading misinformation, you claim masks don't work.

Now, let me say this - I don't think masks stop the spread of the virus. But I do believe in the science that says it at least slows it down.
It's not misinformation when I've stated clearly that it's my opinion. I'm sure there maybe some offence archeologist who can dig out a tongue in cheek comment about me saying they're pointless, but for the avoidance of doubt this is only my view on a matter where the science is still open for debate. Furthermore when there's so many members telling me how stupid I am for having this view, it's hardly like the pendulum of opinion on this forum has swung into my favour!

Now I am a God fearing man, so I know all about faith, however the faith placed into masks is to me truly remarkable given the timeline of events so far, and the evidence available. You say you believe in the science that says it at least slows it down, but where is the evidence?? Even if one disregards the changing of advice from the WHO and government advice regarding use of masks, that no RCT studies are available etc. where is any evidence that they've been effective in slowing the progression of the virus?

I've now I think grasped how pictures work allow me to show you a few graphs to illustrate what I mean:

The difference between countries with a mask requirement and those that don't have one, do you see any correlation?:


And now a few graphs that show when masks were implemented, do you see any evidence that they "slow" the spread of the virus?

Germany


France


Spain


UK


Belgium


Italy


California


Hawaii


This is just a small sample, however even when one extends to other countries, the pattern remains the same, in that there is no patter. This is neither misinformation nor lies, but genuine questions that should be answered if we're expected to be mandated to wear masks.

Last edited by TonyClifton; 29.10.2020 at 20:14.
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  #15589  
Old 29.10.2020, 20:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's not misinformation when I've stated clearly that it's my opinion. I'm sure there maybe some offence archeologist who can dig out a tongue in cheek comment about me saying they're pointless, but for the avoidance of doubt this is only my view on a matter where the science is still open for debate. Furthermore when there's so many members telling me how stupid I am for having this view, it's hardly like the pendulum of opinion on this forum has swung into my favour!

Now I am a God fearing man, so I know all about faith, however the faith placed into masks is to me truly remarkable given the timeline of events so far, and the evidence available. You say you believe in the science that says it at least slows it down, but where is the evidence?? Even if one disregards the changing of advice from the WHO and government advice regarding use of masks, that no RCT studies are available etc. where is any evidence that they've been effective in slowing the progression of the virus?

I've now I think grasped how pictures work allow me to show you a few graphs to illustrate what I mean:

The difference between countries with a mask requirement and those that don't have one, do you see any correlation?:


And now a few graphs that show when masks were implemented, do you see any evidence that they "slow" the spread of the virus?

Germany


France


Spain


UK


Belgium


Italy


California


Hawaii


This is just a small sample, however even when one extends to other countries, the pattern remains the same, in that there is no patter. This is neither misinformation nor lies, but genuine questions that should be answered if we're expected to be mandated to wear masks.
And you have proof that without masks the situation would have been much better for the same time period?

I 100% believe the situation would have been a disaster without masks. The increase in the numbers would have started significantly quicker and with much higher numbers. You really need to drop your "no masks" required theory. It's proven to offer some degree of protection.
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Old 29.10.2020, 20:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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And you have proof that without masks the situation would have been much better for the same time period?

I 100% believe the situation would have been a disaster without masks. The increase in the numbers would be significantly quicker and much bigger. You really need to drop your "no masks" required theory. It's proven to offer some degree of protection.
No I don't! But you have to admit that the evidence simply isn't compelling, there just is no pattern anywhere to be found. Proof is hard to come by so in the end it comes down to faith and politics as this handy little chart shows.

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Old 29.10.2020, 20:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is just a small sample, however even when one extends to other countries, the pattern remains the same, in that there is no patter. This is neither misinformation nor lies, but genuine questions that should be answered if we're expected to be mandated to wear masks.
Masks required, so what? I was watching the ice-hockey on tv last week. Shots of the crowd showed dozens of people simply not wearing them. Sure people have them around there face - but don't actually wear them.

For many many weeks in my office up until recently, I was the only one wearing a mask. Most people in Europe don't want to wear them and do not.

So your graphs do not surprise me. But changes nothing about the actual facts. Honestly, this entire thing reminds me of the "debate" around wearing seatbelts in the car. People will look back at this time in 30 years and laugh at the utter stupidity people had in dealing with this.

Honestly, expecting masks to be an overnight silver bullet against COVID and using that "failure" as a reason not to wear them is the height of that type of utter stupidity.
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  #15592  
Old 29.10.2020, 21:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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No I don't! But you have to admit that the evidence simply isn't compelling, there just is no pattern anywhere to be found. Proof is hard to come by so in the end it comes down to faith and politics as this handy little chart shows.

Pattern found

Areas With Mask Mandates Have Lower Covid-19 Hospitalization Rate, Study Finds

Of course, if you have blocked my posts then you won't see the evidence

When you block the evidence then you can keep incorrectly claiming there is no evidence.
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  #15593  
Old 29.10.2020, 21:26
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Re: Coronavirus

Speaking of masks... I have a question regarding the restrictions announced yesterday. I guess I thought that it is now required for people to wear masks in public places outdoors -- particularly outside of stores and where people cannot easily socially distance?

Today I walked up to our neighborhood Migros/Denner/Post Office complex, and I wore a mask the whole way there (and back), and I noticed that a lot of people were not wearing masks in the communal area outside of the stores (the courtyard, basically) and were not wearing masks while walking past one another on the narrow path to and from the parking lot.

So I'm wondering now if I didn't understand the new rules (announced yesterday) correctly or if people just weren't following them? I guess I was thinking that new, tighter mask requirements were supposed to go into effect as of midnight last night (?).
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  #15594  
Old 29.10.2020, 21:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Speaking of masks... I have a question regarding the restrictions announced yesterday. I guess I thought that it is now required for people to wear masks in public places outdoors -- particularly outside of stores and where people cannot easily socially distance?

Today I walked up to our neighborhood Migros/Denner/Post Office complex, and I wore a mask the whole way there (and back), and I noticed that a lot of people were not wearing masks in the communal area outside of the stores (the courtyard, basically) and were not wearing masks while walking past one another on the narrow path to and from the parking lot.

So I'm wondering now if I didn't understand the new rules (announced yesterday) correctly or if people just weren't following them? I guess I was thinking that new, tighter mask requirements were supposed to go into effect as of midnight last night (?).
Let's not overdo it. When I pass by someone on the street, i step a bit aside and make sure there is some distance, but I certainly don't put up a mask for a 2 second encounter.

"Situations in which it is not necessary to wear a mask

If you just pass someone briefly while out walking, jogging or cycling, then you do not need to wear a mask."


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  #15595  
Old 29.10.2020, 21:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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Let's not overdo it. When I pass by someone on the street, i step a bit aside and make sure there is some distance, but I certainly don't put up a mask for a 2 second encounter.

"Situations in which it is not necessary to wear a mask

If you just pass someone briefly while out walking, jogging or cycling, then you do not need to wear a mask."


https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...es-bundes.html
Thanks for that. I wasn't trying to overdo anything, it's just that I had seen something else yesterday that made me think they were required in close public space, even when outdoors. So thanks for clearing that up.
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  #15596  
Old 29.10.2020, 21:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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Masks required, so what? I was watching the ice-hockey on tv last week. Shots of the crowd showed dozens of people simply not wearing them. Sure people have them around there face - but don't actually wear them.

For many many weeks in my office up until recently, I was the only one wearing a mask. Most people in Europe don't want to wear them and do not.

So your graphs do not surprise me. But changes nothing about the actual facts. Honestly, this entire thing reminds me of the "debate" around wearing seatbelts in the car. People will look back at this time in 30 years and laugh at the utter stupidity people had in dealing with this.

Honestly, expecting masks to be an overnight silver bullet against COVID and using that "failure" as a reason not to wear them is the height of that type of utter stupidity.
I don't expect masks to be a silver bullet, I just want to see some evidence that they work. Seat Belts, Bike Helmets, Condoms are the "go to" comparison, but for those there is undeniable evidence that they work, and work significantly too.

This is the whole problem with the mask debate. It just keeps getting whittled down into points that cannot be proven. When it was clear that masks don't protect the wearer, we were told "that they're not supposed to protect the wearer rather other people" something that is just not demonstrable on a mass scale through experimentation. Or being told that "if it weren't for masks we would be in a far worse situation now" (also despite the lack of any evidence to prove this). Then at last we come to the final and worst argument of the lot "they're not not such an inconvenience so we shouldn't complain about wearing them, even if they don't help".

I hope and pray in 30 years time that people will have realised the folly of blindly following instructions for an imagined greater good.
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Old 29.10.2020, 21:55
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Re: Coronavirus

All I did was ask a simple question about clarifying mask requirements, and TonyClifton and V both felt the need to "groan" me.

Some people's behavior in this forum is truly pathetic and creepy.
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Old 29.10.2020, 22:04
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Re: Coronavirus

Just to add, for the avoidance of doubt and to avoid the baseless accusation of spreading misinformation, here are a number of scientific studies from credible source that show just how unclear the science is over the use of masks:

From the British Medical Journal:

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.long

Quote:
This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

From the National Library of Medicine:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19216002/

Quote:
Conclusion: Face mask use in health care workers has not been demonstrated to provide benefit in terms of cold symptoms or getting colds. A larger study is needed to definitively establish noninferiority of no mask use.
From the New England Journal of Medicine:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

Quote:
We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection.
As well as something VERY relevant to this forum:

Quote:
In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.
Cambridge:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...6639CCC9D8BC05

Quote:
Influenza viruses circulate around the world every year. From time to time new strains emerge and cause global pandemics. Many national and international health agencies recommended the use of face masks during the 2009 influenza A (H1N1) pandemic. We reviewed the English-language literature on this subject to inform public health preparedness. There is some evidence to support the wearing of masks or respirators during illness to protect others, and public health emphasis on mask wearing during illness may help to reduce influenza virus transmission. There are fewer data to support the use of masks or respirators to prevent becoming infected. Further studies in controlled settings and studies of natural infections in healthcare and community settings are required to better define the effectiveness of face masks and respirators in preventing influenza virus transmission.
Perhaps most relevant from the Center for Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford:

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/maskin...with-politics/

Quote:
This recent crop of trials added 9,112 participants to the total randomised denominator of 13,259 and showed that masks alone have no significant effect in interrupting the spread of ILI or influenza in the general population, nor in healthcare workers.
Quote:
It would appear that despite two decades of pandemic preparedness, there is considerable uncertainty as to the value of wearing masks.

The small number of trials and lateness in the pandemic cycle is unlikely to give us reasonably clear answers and guide decision-makers. This abandonment of the scientific modus operandi and lack of foresight has left the field wide open for the play of opinions, radical views and political influence.
Spreading misinformation indeed
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Old 29.10.2020, 22:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just to add, for the avoidance of doubt and to avoid the baseless accusation of spreading misinformation, here are a number of scientific studies from credible source that show just how unclear the science is over the use of masks:

From the British Medical Journal:

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.long




From the National Library of Medicine:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19216002/



From the New England Journal of Medicine:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372



As well as something VERY relevant to this forum:



Cambridge:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...6639CCC9D8BC05



Perhaps most relevant from the Center for Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford:

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/maskin...with-politics/





Spreading misinformation indeed
Yeah.

I suggest an experiment: We sit you (and V) in a room. We then place a Covid positive person (in early stage) in the same room. We make you sit there for one hour. The Covid positive person is encouraged to tell stories. Both you and V can choose to wear a mask. If you do, the infected immediately also wears a mask.

Buy or sell?
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Old 29.10.2020, 22:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Speaking of masks... I have a question regarding the restrictions announced yesterday. I guess I thought that it is now required for people to wear masks in public places outdoors -- particularly outside of stores and where people cannot easily socially distance?

Today I walked up to our neighborhood Migros/Denner/Post Office complex, and I wore a mask the whole way there (and back), and I noticed that a lot of people were not wearing masks in the communal area outside of the stores (the courtyard, basically) and were not wearing masks while walking past one another on the narrow path to and from the parking lot.

So I'm wondering now if I didn't understand the new rules (announced yesterday) correctly or if people just weren't following them? I guess I was thinking that new, tighter mask requirements were supposed to go into effect as of midnight last night (?).
Well despite the groans of the alt-right, the mask obligation clearly includes the area outside the stores. Probably also the path.

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In den Aussenbereichen von Einrichtungen und Betrieben wie zum Beispiel Läden, Veranstaltungsorte, Restaurants und Bars oder Wochen- und Weihnachtsmärkte.
In belebten Fussgängerbereichen und überall dort, wo der erforderliche Abstand im öffentlichen Raum nicht eingehalten werden kann.
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