Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15701  
Old 30.10.2020, 20:48
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 4,084
Groaned at 156 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 7,124 Times in 3,271 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Which is, I suspect, the reason the following text showed up in media to warn those at risk who aren't taking the threat seriously:

I hope it will not be true.
Yet again the reason the saner part of of the forum gave been begging for action to control the pandemic. And the reason the herd immunity bunch are off their collective rockers.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #15702  
Old 30.10.2020, 20:52
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 4,084
Groaned at 156 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 7,124 Times in 3,271 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Quite a few of the drug candidates i work with are efficacious but have toxicity concerns. That and most large scale clinical trials get paused on safety concerns anyway - often the Patient will develop an unrelated illness that needs to be checked out to make sure it is indeed not linked to the drug.
Ultimately killing a virus is easy. Killing it in the body while also not harming the host too much is the tricky part.

Otherwise we could flush everyone's lungs out with bleach.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #15703  
Old 30.10.2020, 21:09
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,643
Groaned at 409 Times in 353 Posts
Thanked 17,263 Times in 9,280 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Source?

It really doesn't make any conclusion other than medical masks are better than cloth masks (which surely is not contentious) - its more of a review article than anything.

I'd imagine its more likely to be rejected as not impactful enough than actually wrong.

Why not listen to it and make only medical / N95 masks allowed? Cloth masks were really only suitable for when there was a shortage. Logically their efficacy should be very low and this seems to being born out in the real world.
Interested to know where you found the conclusion you posted since the "still-secret" research result has never been released?

I posted a link to the study some time ago that defined who was involved and their methods but they never released the completed study and results for review.

For me any scientific paper that has not completed its peer review has failed, failure is not the same as wrong as you claim. Usually, failures are corrected and the peer review can be completed.

Rumours are that they did not put it up for peer review because they were worried about the reaction. more here.

The claims the study is suppressed are somewhat suspicious when the authors refuse to provide the written reasons for rejection.

Other rumours are, for example, there were too few corona-infected people in this Danish study to be able to draw clear conclusions. The study was in May when there were around a total 9,000 cases in a population of 6 million.

We are just guessing since the study authors have released very little information.
__________________
It is naive to assume my posts are my own work
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #15704  
Old 30.10.2020, 21:35
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,643
Groaned at 409 Times in 353 Posts
Thanked 17,263 Times in 9,280 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
From the Guardian today:


'' A study suggesting a coronavirus variant originating in Spain now accounts for most UK cases has highlighted the weakness of the government’s travel policies over the summer, experts have said.
Research from scientists in Switzerland, which is yet to be peer-reviewed, has revealed that a new variant of coronavirus, known as 20A.EU1, appears to have cropped up in Spain during the summer and has since spread to multiple European countries, including the UK.
“In Wales and Scotland the variant was at 80% in mid-September, whereas frequencies in Switzerland and England were around 50% at that time,” the authors said.

Global report: Spain declares Covid state of emergency as Italians urged to stay home

The variant appeared in the UK in the middle of July when quarantine-free travel to Spain was allowed for England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. However, the new variant of the virus is now common in countries across Europe, meaning travellers to and from many countries could since have brought it back to the UK.
All hail to Pancake
Reply With Quote
  #15705  
Old 30.10.2020, 21:38
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,643
Groaned at 409 Times in 353 Posts
Thanked 17,263 Times in 9,280 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Germany has thousands of idle beds, and they can offer them for probably half the price of a Swiss hospital ...
So long as the patients survive the journey
Reply With Quote
  #15706  
Old 30.10.2020, 22:25
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,361
Groaned at 128 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 7,258 Times in 2,761 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
It didn't exactly answer my questions but then I didn't quite expect anyone would..

There're entire demographic groups between 40 and 65 that can't just stay home or can't just not mix with the afore mentioned group. Known moderate risk groups too. Families with members belonging to different risk groups.
.
So because risk groups can’t, the “solution” being applied is that we all stay home instead?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #15707  
Old 30.10.2020, 22:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,560
Groaned at 327 Times in 267 Posts
Thanked 13,828 Times in 7,139 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
So because risk groups can’t, the “solution” being applied is that we all stay home instead?
No, of course you don't have to stay at home, Samaire, you can continue to enjoy your life just as before.... Obviously I didn't suggest that, partial lockdown means something else. There are some measures that could have been still taken before the proverbial shit hits the fan. Not everyone agrees with the gov, not even the Swiss I know.

Seriously, what's so difficult to understand that even if you're healthy and bellow 40, you or I can't do whatever the f# we want for the time being? This is a pandemic I personally do whatever I can so that everyone around me is safe. This is not a time to be egotistic.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at greenmount for this post:
  #15708  
Old 30.10.2020, 23:03
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 11,777
Groaned at 194 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 18,564 Times in 7,786 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Germany has thousands of idle beds, and they can offer them for probably half the price of a Swiss hospital ...
Germany is already taking patients from Belgium as they are overwhelmed now.
Reply With Quote
  #15709  
Old 30.10.2020, 23:05
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: LaCote
Posts: 461
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 661 Times in 278 Posts
Sigh has an excellent reputationSigh has an excellent reputationSigh has an excellent reputationSigh has an excellent reputation
Re: Coronavirus

"Record of hospitalizations at HUG
In twenty-four hours, the Geneva University Hospitals hospitalized 68 new patients. This is a higher figure than at the height of the first wave of the pandemic last spring."

"If the trend observed in recent days does not change". It would then be necessary to reactivate "coordination between hospitals in French-speaking Switzerland" in order to plan any transfers."

https://www.tdg.ch/record-dhospitali...g-456405763676
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Sigh for this useful post:
  #15710  
Old 30.10.2020, 23:20
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ausserschwyz
Posts: 687
Groaned at 26 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 1,161 Times in 465 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Germany is already taking patients from Belgium as they are overwhelmed now.
Germany has loads of ICU capacity, probably twice per capita what Switzerland has. They added beds in spring like they were tanks needed on the Ostfront.

At least in parts of Germany the first wave never arrived. Good friend of mine is a doctor in a big university hospital in Germany - they had 400 beds reserved for Covid patients - and at the "peak" they had 20!

Germany is still at one fifth of the per capita case numbers of Switzerland. And have now much stricter measures.

Interesting how the crossborder optimization of hospital capacity did not work in the first week (it was certainly not for the lack of idling planes), and I am not optimistic it will be better this time.
Reply With Quote
  #15711  
Old 30.10.2020, 23:53
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 745
Groaned at 15 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 900 Times in 467 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Interested to know where you found the conclusion you posted since the "still-secret" research result has never been released?

I posted a link to the study some time ago that defined who was involved and their methods but they never released the completed study and results for review.

For me any scientific paper that has not completed its peer review has failed, failure is not the same as wrong as you claim. Usually, failures are corrected and the peer review can be completed.

Rumours are that they did not put it up for peer review because they were worried about the reaction. more here.

The claims the study is suppressed are somewhat suspicious when the authors refuse to provide the written reasons for rejection.

Other rumours are, for example, there were too few corona-infected people in this Danish study to be able to draw clear conclusions. The study was in May when there were around a total 9,000 cases in a population of 6 million.

We are just guessing since the study authors have released very little information.
I'm only speculating that it maybe impact rather than a rejection based on flawed science, but from a position as a published research scientist. Impact is a much more common reason than something being flat out rubbish. The journals they didn't get published in are all highly prestigious. That again makes impact a more likely reason as these journals reject a lot of entirely correct but comparatively non exciting science.

Not only that, but as I've explained to you before, there is a chance that it didn't even reach peer review if the journal rejected it out of hand. They might not want to get involved with "controversial" topics and not send it to peer review.

Basically you can't just presume that it's rejected for being "wrong".Even if it is, it could be the peer reviewer that is wrong.

Incidentally from my reading of the lancet paper that led to the WHO mask policy change: I'd say it was highly supportive of respirators but only pretty weakly so for lower quality masks. It wouldn't really surprise me if the very weakest masks (cloth) were of almost no efficacy. Masks aren't made alike. Really it would not be surprising to see no statistically significant protection.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 31.10.2020 at 01:53.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #15712  
Old 31.10.2020, 00:24
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 745
Groaned at 15 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 900 Times in 467 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Pretty clear that the French side need imminent increased measures to avoid meltdown and that the German side aren't so far behind. Surely to god it's time to shut pubs.

Prediction for the weekend - 27,000 diagnoses cases
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #15713  
Old 31.10.2020, 00:30
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ausserschwyz
Posts: 687
Groaned at 26 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 1,161 Times in 465 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Surely to god it's time to shut pubs.

Prediction for the weekend - 27,000 diagnoses cases
Yes, amazing that this has not happened yet.
Reply With Quote
  #15714  
Old 31.10.2020, 04:25
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,361
Groaned at 128 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 7,258 Times in 2,761 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
No, of course you don't have to stay at home, Samaire, you can continue to enjoy your life just as before.... Obviously I didn't suggest that, partial lockdown means something else. There are some measures that could have been still taken before the proverbial shit hits the fan. Not everyone agrees with the gov, not even the Swiss I know.

Seriously, what's so difficult to understand that even if you're healthy and bellow 40, you or I can't do whatever the f# we want for the time being? This is a pandemic I personally do whatever I can so that everyone around me is safe. This is not a time to be egotistic.
It's not about me, for fk's sake. At no point did I say this was about what I can or cannot do. I have at no point refused to do whatever measure du jour was thrown at the world, no matter how ridiculous I find them at this scale. Every time I write here it's about large-scale and/or global implications because believe it or not, I'm actually not as egotistic and selfish as you seem to believe or as others are. And it's precisely because I'm not that I comment the way I do. I have literally posted that I'm in an insanely comfortable position because I can, for example, work wherever I want, have some financial security and have, so far, dealt with negligible consequences in this insanity, but that IT IS NOT ABOUT ME.

So question right back then: "For the time being" was what, "3 weeks" in March and is now what, 9 months with open end? So I guess: seriously, what's so difficult to understand about the fact that all these universal measures stand in zero proportionality to the "danger" of this and that none of this is predominantly about health anymore, if it ever even was?

Let's talk again 3 years from now. Believe what you want to believe in the meantime.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #15715  
Old 31.10.2020, 08:22
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 816
Groaned at 280 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 1,824 Times in 889 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I'm only speculating that it maybe impact rather than a rejection based on flawed science, but from a position as a published research scientist. Impact is a much more common reason than something being flat out rubbish. The journals they didn't get published in are all highly prestigious. That again makes impact a more likely reason as these journals reject a lot of entirely correct but comparatively non exciting science.

Not only that, but as I've explained to you before, there is a chance that it didn't even reach peer review if the journal rejected it out of hand. They might not want to get involved with "controversial" topics and not send it to peer review.

Basically you can't just presume that it's rejected for being "wrong".Even if it is, it could be the peer reviewer that is wrong.

Incidentally from my reading of the lancet paper that led to the WHO mask policy change: I'd say it was highly supportive of respirators but only pretty weakly so for lower quality masks. It wouldn't really surprise me if the very weakest masks (cloth) were of almost no efficacy. Masks aren't made alike. Really it would not be surprising to see no statistically significant protection.
Or that just because having something peer reviewed, doesn’t necessarily make it right! How many peer reviewed papers have Phillip Morris had published over the years?

Reading good manuscripts is like a laborious game. Title, abstract, where is it from, who’s written it, where has it been published, who funded it, when was it submitted, how long has it been in peer review, read the methods before the conclusions. Do the references backup how they have been presented? Nothing is ever black and white.

Quote:
View Post
It's not about me, for fk's sake. At no point did I say this was about what I can or cannot do. I have at no point refused to do whatever measure du jour was thrown at the world, no matter how ridiculous I find them at this scale. Every time I write here it's about large-scale and/or global implications because believe it or not, I'm actually not as egotistic and selfish as you seem to believe or as others are. And it's precisely because I'm not that I comment the way I do. I have literally posted that I'm in an insanely comfortable position because I can, for example, work wherever I want, have some financial security and have, so far, dealt with negligible consequences in this insanity, but that IT IS NOT ABOUT ME.

So question right back then: "For the time being" was what, "3 weeks" in March and is now what, 9 months with open end? So I guess: seriously, what's so difficult to understand about the fact that all these universal measures stand in zero proportionality to the "danger" of this and that none of this is predominantly about health anymore, if it ever even was?

Let's talk again 3 years from now. Believe what you want to believe in the meantime.
It’s a shame how everything has to be made personal. If we go into a second lockdown now all we’ll do then is talk about going into a third. If you want the prefect metaphor for our reaction to Covid, look no further than the story below.

https://news.sky.com/story/man-blows...t-fly-12065583

Last edited by TonyClifton; 31.10.2020 at 09:17.
Reply With Quote
  #15716  
Old 31.10.2020, 09:11
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 915
Groaned at 110 Times in 53 Posts
Thanked 441 Times in 233 Posts
markalex is considered knowledgeablemarkalex is considered knowledgeablemarkalex is considered knowledgeable
Re: Coronavirus

There is one country on the planet that beat this thing hands down. China.

They did it with a lockdown.

Switzerland did with a lockdown too, but we then opened the borders and encouraged everybody to get on a plane and go shopping and get us some more covid-19, which the selfish and stupid willingly did.

Had they not re-opened the airports and borders full on than we wouldn't now be looking at a second lockdown. Sure we need to keep trading, but I don't believe that it is business that has spread this thing, no it is individuals.

Covid-19 doesn't have a legs, it doesn't fly, it isn't in the water and although you can argue it is in the wind, nobody has/is suggesting it has travelled anywhere significant on that medium. Neither has it thankfully crossed to any other species yet....

No it needs people. Stupid people. Selfish people. People who don't want to wear masks. People who don't want to wash their hands. People who need to go on vacation every year come what may. People who care about little else beyond their self satisfaction.

If you need to travel for work, so be it. But take care of yourself because nobody can afford to lose to covid-19 ultimately, nobody. With or without a job. When you're dead, you're dead.

And well, if you can do without this and that for a month, bloody well do so. If we all followed rules, everyone to the book, than covid-19 would be dead in two weeks. Covid-19 would be dead.

It cannot survive in the world alone, covid-19 needs people, period. Stop people passing around and it will be over, over as suddenly as it started.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank markalex for this useful post:
  #15717  
Old 31.10.2020, 09:18
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 4,084
Groaned at 156 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 7,124 Times in 3,271 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Yes, amazing that this has not happened yet.
They mentioned on Friday that they have a significant backlog in testing. Reckon without that the Thursday and Friday numbers would have already cracked 10,000.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #15718  
Old 31.10.2020, 09:19
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Zurich
Posts: 816
Groaned at 280 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 1,824 Times in 889 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
There is one country on the planet that beat this thing hands down. China.
The whole of east Asia has coped with this virus! They’re carrying on whilst Europe and likely soon the US will bunker down for the winter. The effect this will have on geopolitics will be profound.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #15719  
Old 31.10.2020, 09:21
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 15,526
Groaned at 314 Times in 222 Posts
Thanked 17,975 Times in 9,330 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I have literally posted that I'm in an insanely comfortable position because I can, for example, work wherever I want, have some financial security and have, so far, dealt with negligible consequences in this insanity, but that IT IS NOT ABOUT ME.
Of course it is not. But people will search for all sorts of probable and improbable personal reasons behind your opinions if your opinions happen to differ from theirs.

I don't think that it is egotistic to understand and publicly own up to grasping what the government does, why the semilockdown is gradual and not immediate, why you support your government, knowing a fair bit about how things are done here.

Thanks for sticking to it and sharing it here with us, patiently. It is pretty selfless of you.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #15720  
Old 31.10.2020, 09:45
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 38
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 40 Times in 12 Posts
NewInTownForever has no particular reputation at present
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
The whole of east Asia has coped with this virus! They’re carrying on whilst Europe and likely soon the US will bunker down for the winter. The effect this will have on geopolitics will be profound.
East Asian countries don't have people protesting that they don't want to wear a mask...
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank NewInTownForever for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0