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  #15861  
Old 01.11.2020, 18:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Exactly what OH said (retired, UCH 1969) - last thing you want in ICU in a crisis, are doctors, nurses or assistants who do not have a clue and get in the way more than anything else.
Ugh. I feel like I'm living in a pick-your-own dystopian nightmare. Stay in Switzerland and run the chance of not getting a hospital bed if needed? Fly to the States just in time to watch it fully devolve into a banana republic?

Which to choose, which to choose?
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  #15862  
Old 01.11.2020, 18:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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Ugh. I feel like I'm living in a pick-your-own dystopian nightmare. Stay in Switzerland and run the chance of not getting a hospital bed if needed? Fly to the States just in time to watch it fully devolve into a banana republic?

Which to choose, which to choose?
If it weren't for the fact that coming from Switzerland I pose an unacceptable risk to my 90 year old mother, I'd be hightailing it back to the US.

We can live to fight another day to pull back from the banana republic... but only if we live.

I'm not liking my chances if I were to need hospitalization here.

ETA:

Then there's the fact that I dont have health insurance in the US... as you say, choose your dystopian nightmare.

Last edited by meloncollie; 01.11.2020 at 19:02.
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  #15863  
Old 01.11.2020, 18:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not liking my chances if I were to need hospitalization here.
Well, If you need hospitalisation, chances are low. Thankfully, chances that you'll need hospitalisation are even lower
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  #15864  
Old 01.11.2020, 18:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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If it weren't for the fact that coming from Switzerland I pose an unacceptable risk to my 90 year old mother, I'd be hightailing it back to the US.

We can live to fight another day to pull back from the banana republic... but only if we live.

I'm not liking my chances if I were to need hospitalization here.
I think our biggest risk factor for not getting a bed would be our expat status. And the dh is a recovering cancer patient, so he would most likely be stopped at the door. Grim. Where is your mom?
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  #15865  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:06
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Re: Coronavirus

Maybe I am naive, but I dont think expats have lower chances of beeing treated.
We pay taxes and health insurance like everyone else.

In some shady corrupt country maybe, but here
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Old 01.11.2020, 19:15
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Re: Coronavirus

The guidelines to determine who gets treatment once we run out of ICU beds have been published, they do not include expat status, of course. They're based solely on medical factors, for example your life expectancy if you're currently being treated for cancer or the stage of your neurodegenerative disease. Wealth, social status, religion, political affiliation, etc, do not come into play.
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  #15867  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Maybe I am naive, but I dont think expats have lower chances of beeing treated.
We pay taxes and health insurance like everyone else.

In some shady corrupt country maybe, but here
I agree, and there are admission criteria as we discussed the other day. Triage will be done based on life expectancy.

With hospitals at the limits, I expect that the fatality rates in the group above 80 years will increase significantly once they will be triaged and/or "voluntarily" decide not to seek hospitalization. Then some assholes will come here and say "see, I told you, it only kills the old".
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  #15868  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:33
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Re: Coronavirus

On the 30th of Oct. Berset said in an interview with NZZ

""Scientists do not rule Switzerland"
If the Federal Council were convinced that the hospitals would be overloaded in ten days, it would have decided to take stricter measures this week, says Health Minister Alain Berset."



Paywall
https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/berset-zu...9?reduced=true

Last edited by Sigh; 01.11.2020 at 19:34. Reason: Added info
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  #15869  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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On the 30th of Oct. Berset said in an interview with NZZ

""Scientists do not rule Switzerland"
If the Federal Council were convinced that the hospitals would be overloaded in ten days, it would have decided to take stricter measures this week, says Health Minister Alain Berset."
Yeah, we got that. Nobody wanted to own any unpopular decision. I got this feeling back then when I watched the press conference.
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  #15870  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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The guidelines to determine who gets treatment once we run out of ICU beds have been published, they do not include expat status, of course. They're based solely on medical factors, for example your life expectancy if you're currently being treated for cancer or the stage of your neurodegenerative disease. Wealth, social status, religion, political affiliation, etc, do not come into play.

A few months ago, when cases started to rise- there were long discussions on triage. I followed many discussions on the subject with an ex student of mine who is a well-know Professor of Ethics. Some questions were very difficult indeed- and some of the case studies discussed were almost impossible to decide. Like 'should the factor of being a parent responsible for a family' be a factor or not- in the case of two similar outcomes? And many more. But definitely not nationality.
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  #15871  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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A few months ago, when cases started to rise- there were long discussions on triage. .
It does sound dystopian, no matter how ethically you want to put it...I agree with some of the posters here.
I wish people were more careful, more responsible... all of us.
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  #15872  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:04
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Re: Coronavirus

Some interesting reading on National COVID-19 Science Task Force (NCS-TF) under the Policy Briefs - latest situation 30/10/20. The conclusion is that the only way to deal with the current ICU availability issue is to publish new triage rules in the next few days.
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  #15873  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Media still using phrases such as : ''Controlling the virus''
Then measuring countries based on that idiotic proposition of who 'controls' virus better....

Here is excess mortality research https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps

If someone can answer the Q, why certain countries 'control' the virus better than others they would probably get a Nobel prize or will be called a racist/xenophobe.
This is very much the point! There has been total failure in controlling the virus across the Europe. Nothing has worked, social distancing hasnít worked, masks havenít worked, curfews havenít worked, washing hands hasnít worked, lockdown hasnít worked, everything theyíve tried has failed. Which is why the nearly the whole of Europe hasnít moved a step further from March and repeating the whole thing again there are no further ideas!

Once this is all over it shouldnít be forgotten that many of these leaders and governments who told us they could control the coronavirus have also told us theyíll be able to control climate change! 1000 years since King Canute yet we donít seem to have learned much!
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  #15874  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is very much the point! There has been total failure in controlling the virus across the Europe. Nothing has worked, social distancing hasnít worked, masks havenít worked, curfews havenít worked, washing hands hasnít worked, lockdown hasnít worked, everything theyíve tried has failed. Which is why the nearly the whole of Europe hasnít moved a step further from March and repeating the whole thing again there are no further ideas!

Once this is all over it shouldnít be forgotten that many of these leaders and governments who told us they could control the coronavirus have also told us theyíll be able to control climate change! 1000 years since King Canute yet we donít seem to have learned much!
And why hasnīt it all worked? Also because people did not adhere to the rules and recommendations. So what do you recommend then? Easy to complain, difficult to find a solution
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  #15875  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is very much the point! There has been total failure in controlling the virus across the Europe. Nothing has worked, social distancing hasnít worked, masks havenít worked, curfews havenít worked, washing hands hasnít worked, lockdown hasnít worked, everything theyíve tried has failed. Which is why the nearly the whole of Europe hasnít moved a step further from March and repeating the whole thing again there are no further ideas!

Once this is all over it shouldnít be forgotten that many of these leaders and governments who told us they could control the coronavirus have also told us theyíll be able to control climate change! 1000 years since King Canute yet we donít seem to have learned much!
We don't like authority and we are bad in collective thinking. You can't blame a government for not being able to control Covid or the climate. It's something we need to do together - and we fail.
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Old 01.11.2020, 20:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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I agree, and there are admission criteria as we discussed the other day. Triage will be done based on life expectancy.

With hospitals at the limits, I expect that the fatality rates in the group above 80 years will increase significantly once they will be triaged and/or "voluntarily" decide not to seek hospitalization. Then some assholes will come here and say "see, I told you, it only kills the old".
I am optimistic that cases will start decreasing soon. Until then, hospitals will be helping each other taking over patients if an IC until is full.
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  #15877  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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It does sound dystopian, no matter how ethically you want to put it...I agree with some of the posters here.
I wish people were more careful, more responsible... all of us.



of course- but that was a Study and Ethics group from Zurich University- it was essential to discuss with the medical profession how to formulate the triage assessments- in case it was ever required. Ethics do pose very difficult questions, for sure. Medical Ethics even more so- for instance in the case of organ donations, where there is a chronic shortage.
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  #15878  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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I am optimistic that cases will start decreasing soon. Until then, hospitals will be helping each other taking over patients if an IC until is full.
Yes if one belongs to the group that meets triage criteria for treatment.
The below gentleman did not

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In Valais, the first patients have to be turned away. An over 80-year-old was admitted to the Sion Cantonal Hospital with severe corona symptoms. But he was no longer treated: "Normally we would have taken this person in so that they had at least a minimal chance of survival," says Bienvenido Sanchez to the " NZZ am Sonntag ""

https://www.20min.ch/story/selbst-tr...r-855818950050

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Old 01.11.2020, 20:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes if one belongs to the group that meets triage criteria for treatment.
The below gentleman did not
F---, I wouldn't want to be the doc who has to say "sorry, but you are on your own".
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  #15880  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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F---, I wouldn't want to be the doc who has to say "sorry, but you are on your own".
Probably a nurse who makes the call.
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