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  #15881  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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And why hasnīt it all worked? Also because people did not adhere to the rules and recommendations. So what do you recommend then? Easy to complain, difficult to find a solution
It hasn't worked because we're now repeating exactly the same procedure that was carried out in March, with the small mercy that schools are being kept open. As for how to change the approach, some of the ideas from professor Carl Heneghan here are quite interesting.

What's clear is that if we do exactly the same thing now, we'll just have exactly the same results as we've already had. Something should change. We can already count on the third lockdown in early 2021 if we carry on down this path.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-Johnson.html

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We don't like authority and we are bad in collective thinking. You can't blame a government for not being able to control Covid or the climate. It's something we need to do together - and we fail.
I don't agree, the messaging has been appalling. "Don't go to work, go to work, don't go to work". "Don't wear a mask, wear a mask". "Eat out to help the economy, don't eat out to protect healthcare". Ultimately we need to accept we're dealing with a virus we may never be able to control.
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  #15882  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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Probably a nurse who makes the call.
Maybe. I think both the nurse and the doctor would find this a shit day.
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  #15883  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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of course- but that was a Study and Ethics group from Zurich University- it was essential to discuss with the medical profession how to formulate the triage assessments- in case it was ever required. Ethics do pose very difficult questions, for sure. Medical Ethics even more so- for instance in the case of organ donations, where there is a chronic shortage.
Will they harvest organs from a covid victim? I expect not.
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  #15884  
Old 01.11.2020, 19:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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Will they harvest organs from a covid victim? I expect not.
Seems different which country

Here -
https://www.swisstransplant.org/en/s...ransplantation

If the test result is positive (traces of coronavirus), a lung transplant cannot be carried out under any circumstances. The remaining organs will only be accepted for urgent life-saving transplantations following consultation with an infectologist from one of the university medical centres.

Uk- https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/get...atest-updates/
Every potential organ donor is being tested for COVID-19 and if someone has COVID-19 they will not be able to donate.

Although there is no known transmission of COVID-19 through organ donation, as patients who need a transplant have to be immuno-suppressed, any risks need to be minimised as much as possible
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  #15885  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:08
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Re: Coronavirus

Well, I am happy with them using whatever bits of me that they need.
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  #15886  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:08
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Re: Coronavirus

Of course, and that was not the point, surely- but a comparison of how medical ethics have to triage cases.
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  #15887  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:10
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Re: Coronavirus

Covid 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 next?
Feels like I am living in some virtual simulation
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  #15888  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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It hasn't worked because we're now repeating exactly the same procedure that was carried out in March, with the small mercy that schools are being kept open. As for how to change the approach, some of the ideas from professor Carl Heneghan here are quite interesting.

What's clear is that if we do exactly the same thing now, we'll just have exactly the same results as we've already had. Something should change. We can already count on the third lockdown in early 2021 if we carry on down this path.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-Johnson.html



I don't agree, the messaging has been appalling. "Don't go to work, go to work, don't go to work". "Don't wear a mask, wear a mask". "Eat out to help the economy, don't eat out to protect healthcare". Ultimately we need to accept we're dealing with a virus we may never be able to control.
I don't at all understand your logic. I don't post much but I follow lots of threads closely, and you seem to constantly moan about the measures taken not being effective enough, yet seem to also think the government shouldn't intervene and impose restrictions. What do you think should be done to reduce case numbers? Do you know of a magic solution no one else has thought of?
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  #15889  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:16
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Re: Coronavirus

Mad Max .... 2021
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  #15890  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't at all understand your logic. I don't post much but I follow lots of threads closely, and you seem to constantly moan about the measures taken not being effective enough, yet seem to also think the government shouldn't intervene and impose restrictions. What do you think should be done to reduce case numbers? Do you know of a magic solution no one else has thought of?
Well, Oz seems to have found one.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54768038
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  #15891  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't at all understand your logic. I don't post much but I follow lots of threads closely, and you seem to constantly moan about the measures taken not being effective enough, yet seem to also think the government shouldn't intervene and impose restrictions. What do you think should be done to reduce case numbers? Do you know of a magic solution no one else has thought of?
Read the piece I posted above, my views are largely aligned with that. I think we need to learn to live with the virus. We need an agile vaccine that may never come so we need to learn to live with the virus and build up some natural immunity. Those at risk should self isolate if they feel the need to do so, this should be supported however it should be a choice.
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Old 01.11.2020, 20:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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The guidelines to determine who gets treatment once we run out of ICU beds have been published, they do not include expat status, of course. They're based solely on medical factors, for example your life expectancy if you're currently being treated for cancer or the stage of your neurodegenerative disease. Wealth, social status, religion, political affiliation, etc, do not come into play.
I don't share your confidence in those left to make the decision. I'm also not thinking solely of COVID patients, but what room is left for critical non-COVID patients (ski/bike/car accidents,etc.)

Welcome to Jumanji, Level 10 also known as....November.
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  #15893  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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Covid 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 next?
Feels like I am living in some virtual simulation
Michael Bay already making a film on this premise

https://www.theguardian.com/film/202...vie-criticized

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgxXSfto6Vo

Spoiler: it looks terrible
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  #15894  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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Read the piece I posted above, my views are largely aligned with that. I think we need to learn to live with the virus. We need an agile vaccine that may never come so we need to learn to live with the virus and build up some natural immunity. Those at risk should self isolate if they feel the need to do so, this should be supported however it should be a choice.
This is where we differ. I agree that the virus is here to stay, but you seem to imply we shouldn't do anything to try and reduce the number of hospitalizations/deaths. Where is your compassion? I work in a busy congested workplace with hundreds of people, we've had masks and distancing rules in effect since the spring. I have had many colleagues fall ill with Covid and needing to isolate, but they are always one-offs and traceable to non-work contact with infected people in a setting where no precautionary measures were taken. There have been zero documented cases of work-related spread, and so far we are able to continue to go to work. Work from home isn't possible. There are constant instances of people having to self-isolate due to contact with an infected person. Sometimes they test positive, sometimes they test negative, but they fact that they stay at home ensures the safety of the rest of us. I'd say we are working at 80% capacity, which is pretty good.

The masks and distancing measures seem to be working, but the key thing is that we are all strictly following the rules. Given how infectious this virus seems to be, if we went back to pre-covid behaviour with congested meeting rooms with no distancing, crowded queues to buy coffee with no masks worn, poor hand-washing hygiene, etc. we'd have enough sick people to overflow a hospital ward within a week. But for the most part we're still healthy. But you think we're doing things wrong, and should have all decided our workplace is a Covid party, let's all get sick as quickly as possible?

Last edited by Bossa Nova; 01.11.2020 at 21:09.
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  #15895  
Old 01.11.2020, 20:44
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Re: Coronavirus

And what happens exactly when they open up? Or do Melbourne and Australia stay in lockdown ad infinitum?

This virus is here to stay and we need to learn how to live with it until an effective vaccine is found. Just my thoughts... (and I am typically an optimist but in this case, troubling times and decisions - and whichever decision is made, both have lousy consequences).

Just read an article which highlighted that this virus has increased the gulf in the wealthy vs. lower middle class and poor. The wealthy are saving money as the stock market keeps accreting in value and they cannot travel or dine as frivolously as they used to. So they are saving money.

The lower middle class and poor are struggling and then some. Unemployment; lost wages; no stimulus package and food banks are overrun (in the US at least).

I am not sure what the answer is here. I am just as flummoxed as most governments; it's a tough call...
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Old 01.11.2020, 20:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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The lower middle class and poor are struggling and then some. Unemployment; lost wages; no stimulus package and food banks are overrun (in the US at least).

I am not sure what the answer is here. I am just as flummoxed as most governments; it's a tough call...
Here aswell, recalling the long lines of people waiting for a bag of food in Geneva some time back...
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Old 01.11.2020, 21:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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Here aswell, recalling the long lines of people waiting for a bag of food in Geneva some time back...
Yea... those were mainly under the table workers who are no longer needed due to tourism etc. taking a nose dive.
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Old 01.11.2020, 21:07
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Re: Coronavirus

I hope they have their borders closed to hopefully keep it that way (no new cases).
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Old 01.11.2020, 21:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Those at risk should self isolate if they feel the need to do so, this should be supported however it should be a choice.
PS-I am at low-to-moderate risk (cancer, currently not completely resolved), one of the things I have to do on a very regular basis is go the big cantonal hospital for appointments and tests. I can't remain at home and self-isolate, and when I'm at the hospital I am in close proximity with fellow cancer patients, some of whom are very, very ill, and more at risk than me. Your solution is we should all stay at home in order to minimise our risk of exposure, and if we decide to venture out into society and go to the hospital for tests or treatment, it's our choice to expose ourselves to the virus, and we can't complain if we fall ill because others who are less at risk made no attempt to reduce their chances of transmitting this virus?
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Old 01.11.2020, 21:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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PS-I am at low-to-moderate risk (cancer, currently not completely resolved), one of the things I have to do on a very regular basis is go the big cantonal hospital for appointments and tests. I can't remain at home and self-isolate, and when I'm at the hospital I am in close proximity with fellow cancer patients, some of whom are very, very ill, and more at risk than me. Your solution is we should all stay at home in order to minimise our risk of exposure, and if we decide to venture out into society and go to the hospital for tests or treatment, it's our choice to expose ourselves to the virus, and we can't complain if we fall ill because others who are less at risk made no attempt to reduce their chances of transmitting this virus?
I am sorry for your struggle; these are troubling times indeed and frankly, I have ZERO clue as to the best response. I wish you well
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