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Old 01.11.2020, 21:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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I am sorry for your struggle; these are troubling times indeed and frankly, I have ZERO clue as to the best response. I wish you well
Thanks for your wishes! Not that I want to complain, but my diagnosis/surgery/week in hospital/month at home recovering from surgery/five weeks of radiation therapy pretty much exactly aligned with the beginning of the outbreak and the hard confinement (Jan-May), which made the whole process even more difficult as a patient. My 2020 has been pretty crap even without Covid. But the health care I have received has been outstanding.

Now more than ever I deeply appreciate what it means to be at risk, how vulnerable some people are, and what duty we have to protect those who are fragile. It just infuriates me that so many people seem unwilling to make simple voluntary gestures in the interests of the greater public health. Where's the love?
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  #15902  
Old 01.11.2020, 21:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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PS-I am at low-to-moderate risk (cancer, currently not completely resolved), one of the things I have to do on a very regular basis is go the big cantonal hospital for appointments and tests. I can't remain at home and self-isolate, and when I'm at the hospital I am in close proximity with fellow cancer patients, some of whom are very, very ill, and more at risk than me. Your solution is we should all stay at home in order to minimise our risk of exposure, and if we decide to venture out into society and go to the hospital for tests or treatment, it's our choice to expose ourselves to the virus, and we can't complain if we fall ill because others who are less at risk made no attempt to reduce their chances of transmitting this virus?

You shouldnt have to justify yourself, or have to question wether you can/should go to the hospital. The only thing you should be doing, is fighting to get well. It is everyones responsibility to make sure that you can.

Sad times indeed
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Old 01.11.2020, 22:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is where we differ. I agree that the virus is here to stay, but you seem to imply we shouldn't do anything to try and reduce the number of hospitalizations/deaths. Where is your compassion? I work in a busy congested workplace with hundreds of people, we've had masks and distancing rules in effect since the spring. I have had many colleagues fall ill with Covid and needing to isolate, but they are always one-offs and traceable to non-work contact with infected people in a setting where no precautionary measures were taken. There have been zero documented cases of work-related spread, and so far we are able to continue to go to work. Work from home isn't possible. There are constant instances of people having to self-isolate due to contact with an infected person. Sometimes they test positive, sometimes they test negative, but they fact that they stay at home ensures the safety of the rest of us. I'd say we are working at 80% capacity, which is pretty good.

The masks and distancing measures seem to be working, but the key thing is that we are all strictly following the rules. Given how infectious this virus seems to be, if we went back to pre-covid behaviour with congested meeting rooms with no distancing, crowded queues to buy coffee with no masks worn, poor hand-washing hygiene, etc. we'd have enough sick people to overflow a hospital ward within a week. But for the most part we're still healthy. But you think we're doing things wrong, and should have all decided our workplace is a Covid party, let's all get sick as quickly as possible?
I have never said we shouldn't do anything to stop the spread of the virus, I simply oppose measures like quarantining the healthy, and similar measures that cause more harm than the virus itself.

Your office is just one place, but lets face it, the biggest factor in affecting the spread of the virus hasn't been any measures that have been taken, social distancing or masks, but the change of the seasons.

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PS-I am at low-to-moderate risk (cancer, currently not completely resolved), one of the things I have to do on a very regular basis is go the big cantonal hospital for appointments and tests. I can't remain at home and self-isolate, and when I'm at the hospital I am in close proximity with fellow cancer patients, some of whom are very, very ill, and more at risk than me. Your solution is we should all stay at home in order to minimise our risk of exposure, and if we decide to venture out into society and go to the hospital for tests or treatment, it's our choice to expose ourselves to the virus, and we can't complain if we fall ill because others who are less at risk made no attempt to reduce their chances of transmitting this virus?
I am sorry for your situation, which can't be an easy one. If the state were to pay for a taxi to take you to hospital as a vulnerable person and minimize your contact with others, then these are the types of solutions that are available in sheltering those most at risk.

It all comes down to risk and trade-offs in the end. Should kids be expected to give up their education to save the very elderly? Should the next generation have to take on a mountain of debt? Should people starve to death due to the economic impact of lockdown? Should people have to suffer the mental anxiety of being forced into isolate?

Ultimately it comes down to doing the best thing for the majority of people.
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  #15904  
Old 01.11.2020, 22:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't agree, the messaging has been appalling. "Don't go to work, go to work, don't go to work". "Don't wear a mask, wear a mask". "Eat out to help the economy, don't eat out to protect healthcare". Ultimately we need to accept we're dealing with a virus we may never be able to control.
I would query why, when addressing a Dutch person living in Switzerland, you're quoting messages used by the British government and not the Swiss one?
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  #15905  
Old 01.11.2020, 22:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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I have never said we shouldn't do anything to stop the spread of the virus, I simply oppose measures like quarantining the healthy, and similar measures that cause more harm than the virus itself.

Your office is just one place, but lets face it, the biggest factor in affecting the spread of the virus hasn't been any measures that have been taken, social distancing or masks, but the change of the seasons.

I am sorry for your situation, which can't be an easy one. If the state were to pay for a taxi to take you to hospital as a vulnerable person and minimize your contact with others, then these are the types of solutions that are available in sheltering those most at risk.

It all comes down to risk and trade-offs in the end. Should kids be expected to give up their education to save the very elderly? Should the next generation have to take on a mountain of debt? Should people starve to death due to the economic impact of lockdown? Should people have to suffer the mental anxiety of being forced into isolate?

Ultimately it comes down to doing the best thing for the majority of people.
The best thing for the majority is to avoid being seriously ill or dying; not so hard to understand?
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Old 01.11.2020, 22:57
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Re: Coronavirus

Are we looking forward to Lockdown this Christmas ? here's Boris with his thoughts on the November
Lockdown in the UK.

Boris Johnson - November Lockdown Parody video
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  #15907  
Old 01.11.2020, 23:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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It all comes down to risk and trade-offs in the end. Should kids be expected to give up their education to save the very elderly? Should the next generation have to take on a mountain of debt? Should people starve to death due to the economic impact of lockdown? Should people have to suffer the mental anxiety of being forced into isolate?

Ultimately it comes down to doing the best thing for the majority of people.
Given that a high infection rate damages the economy as much or more than a lockdown, I'll go for a proportionate lockdown executed at the right time. The measures we now have probably would have been sufficient about 5 weeks ago but I now fear will be insufficient or will take too long to deliver results.

Unfortunately people like you have delayed effective action so much that we will get maximum damage on all fronts
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  #15908  
Old 01.11.2020, 23:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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Are we looking forward to Lockdown this Christmas ? here's Boris with his thoughts on the November
Lockdown in the UK.

Boris Johnson - November Lockdown Parody video
Here's my favourite - Stay Alert to the tune of Do they know it's Christmas ?

Boris's masterpiece - Stay Alert, don't they know its Christmas ?
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  #15909  
Old 02.11.2020, 08:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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I would query why, when addressing a Dutch person living in Switzerland, you're quoting messages used by the British government and not the Swiss one?
This is what I mean by nitpicking! For your information two out of three examples applied to Switzerland too. If you are that finicky for another example of mixed messaging out of Switzerland "Quarantine when returning from aboard, no need to Quarantine when returning from abroad".

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Given that a high infection rate damages the economy as much or more than a lockdown, I'll go for a proportionate lockdown executed at the right time. The measures we now have probably would have been sufficient about 5 weeks ago but I now fear will be insufficient or will take too long to deliver results.

Unfortunately people like you have delayed effective action so much that we will get maximum damage on all fronts
"People like you". It may surprise you to find out that "people like me" have done very well out of lockdown. I own a house, have a garden, get to spend more time with my family, am doing more sport than I have in years and have only a very small chance of losing my income. I've probably spent more time in this discussion than has been healthy, but otherwise from a personal perspective life this year has been very good! And in addition to all that, I follow the rules!

It is not selfish to care about those deciding life is too hopeless to go on, the jobless, those ill with anything other than covid being made to suffer needlessly, or businesses that have spent a great deal becoming Covid secure realizing they're going to have to close again.

Your argument that if we'd taken measures earlier than lockdown could have been avoided just isn't backed up by the evidence. They tried this approach in England and Scotland with the Tier system, and also in France and Spain too, in all cases it's failed.
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  #15910  
Old 02.11.2020, 08:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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"People like you". It may surprise you to find out that "people like me" have done very well out of lockdown. I own a house, have a garden, get to spend more time with my family, am doing more sport than I have in years and have only a very small chance of losing my income. I've probably spent more time in this discussion than has been healthy, but otherwise from a personal perspective life this year has been very good! And in addition to all that, I follow the rules!.
Why on earth would that surprise me? That is exactly what I would expect, hence the "I'm alright jack" attitude. The same selfishness FMF shows time and time again on here.

BTW the same applies to me. Except I try to think about the wider social good.
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  #15911  
Old 02.11.2020, 08:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why on earth would that surprise me? That is exactly what I would expect, hence the "I'm alright jack" attitude. The same selfishness FMF shows time and time again on here.

BTW the same applies to me. Except I try to think about the wider social good.
I just said I've personally benefitted from Covid/Lockdown and yet am arguing against further lockdowns! Hardly an I'm alright Jack attitude!
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Old 02.11.2020, 09:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why on earth would that surprise me? That is exactly what I would expect, hence the "I'm alright jack" attitude. The same selfishness FMF shows time and time again on here.

BTW the same applies to me. Except I try to think about the wider social good.
Too many people are only caring for themselves and selectively picking scientific, academic and other articles to suit their agenda. As I've said before, no preventive measures are perfect, even in combination, but are certainly better than doing nothing at all!

Let's not forget that science is an ever-evolving field where new information rightfully causes rethinks of old hypotheses to improve and expand the current state of knowledge. A fast-moving virus of unknown providence is a good example of where new data comes to light through the scientific method that can result in new answers and advice that may be opposite to what was thought previously. Otherwise, you may still want to subscribe to the flat earth theory or that the sun revolves around the Earth.

I understand the Swiss governmental system devolves power to the kantons, but a pandemic demands a more coordinated, agile and national response than having each kanton choses what they want to do. It made zero sense that some kantons said you need to wear a mask indoors yet the kanton right next door didn't. It took way too long for the current measures, whether right here in CH or in the UK (don't get me started on the US), to be implemented which will result in it taking longer to break the exponential curve.

Now, once it is broken we need to rethink our approach for sure as continually shutting down the entire economy is not the solution
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  #15913  
Old 02.11.2020, 09:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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I own a house, have a garden
Maybe a thread about how to be successful in life?
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Old 02.11.2020, 10:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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I am sorry for your situation, which can't be an easy one. If the state were to pay for a taxi to take you to hospital as a vulnerable person and minimize your contact with others, then these are the types of solutions that are available in sheltering those most at risk.
I'm going a bit off topic. Sounds like the poster has their treatment well in hand, and I hope it's a good recovery. When I had chemo in 2011, IV (the illness insurance, I suppose) paid for my wig and sent me forms for reimbursement of travel to chemo/radiation. If one wanted to take a taxi, I'm sure it would be reimbursed. I never did the travel reimbursement, but it's there if you need it.
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Old 02.11.2020, 10:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is what I mean by nitpicking! For your information two out of three examples applied to Switzerland too. If you are that finicky for another example of mixed messaging out of Switzerland "Quarantine when returning from aboard, no need to Quarantine when returning from abroad".

"People like you". It may surprise you to find out that "people like me" have done very well out of lockdown. I own a house, have a garden, get to spend more time with my family, am doing more sport than I have in years and have only a very small chance of losing my income. I've probably spent more time in this discussion than has been healthy, but otherwise from a personal perspective life this year has been very good! And in addition to all that, I follow the rules!

It is not selfish to care about those deciding life is too hopeless to go on, the jobless, those ill with anything other than covid being made to suffer needlessly, or businesses that have spent a great deal becoming Covid secure realizing they're going to have to close again.

Your argument that if we'd taken measures earlier than lockdown could have been avoided just isn't backed up by the evidence. They tried this approach in England and Scotland with the Tier system, and also in France and Spain too, in all cases it's failed.
Now you are supporting lockdowns
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Old 02.11.2020, 10:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm going a bit off topic. Sounds like the poster has their treatment well in hand, and I hope it's a good recovery. When I had chemo in 2011, IV (the illness insurance, I suppose) paid for my wig and sent me forms for reimbursement of travel to chemo/radiation. If one wanted to take a taxi, I'm sure it would be reimbursed. I never did the travel reimbursement, but it's there if you need it.
Lucky taxi driver exposed to COVID
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  #15917  
Old 02.11.2020, 10:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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It may surprise you to find out that "people like me" have done very well out of lockdown. I own a house, have a garden, get to spend more time with my family, am doing more sport than I have in years and have only a very small chance of losing my income. I've probably spent more time in this discussion than has been healthy, but otherwise from a personal perspective life this year has been very good! And in addition to all that, I follow the rules!

It is not selfish to care about those deciding life is too hopeless to go on, the jobless, those ill with anything other than covid being made to suffer needlessly, or businesses that have spent a great deal becoming Covid secure realizing they're going to have to close again.

Your argument that if we'd taken measures earlier than lockdown could have been avoided just isn't backed up by the evidence. They tried this approach in England and Scotland with the Tier system, and also in France and Spain too, in all cases it's failed.
If so, why all the fearmongering about an economic slowdown or job loses? Symptom #1 of being fine is not worrying. If other people have problems, let the people speak for themselves. Maybe other people is just fine and it's paternalist to assume they're not fine because I know better.
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Old 02.11.2020, 10:40
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It just infuriates me that so many people seem unwilling to make simple voluntary gestures in the interests of the greater public health. Where's the love?
Same... especially when these people are more inclined to proclaim to be "Christians" and "pro-life".
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Old 02.11.2020, 10:45
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Re: Coronavirus

I wonder if VD will follow GE in the coming days.. Friday they seemed very clear that it was up to the people to follow the rules, no lockdown..

Then GE went and shut everything .. Will VD backtrack ..
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Old 02.11.2020, 10:57
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I wonder if VD will follow GE in the coming days.. Friday they seemed very clear that it was up to the people to follow the rules, no lockdown..

Then GE went and shut everything .. Will VD backtrack ..
I get the feeling there'll be a chain reaction across the cantons as those locked down in one try go to the next, then the next canton shuts to prevent this.

Last edited by Ato; 02.11.2020 at 11:10. Reason: Shuts not Shits
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