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Old 02.11.2020, 21:27
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Re: Coronavirus

News from the Eastern Front: Czechs have R at 1. *careful and reserved victory dance follows* I know it's baby steps. 3 wks after lockdown started and today 7600 Covid ICU patients in hospitals.

But we need some good news. Any good news.
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  #15982  
Old 02.11.2020, 21:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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Ouch. I'm sorry to hear that, Pancakes. I really hope everything will be all right, fingers crossed. As far as I know schools are not covid-19 hot spots. Children, especially those under the age of 12 are less susceptible to infection than adults. Apparently once they are infected they are less likely to pass the virus on to others. Out of curiosity, did someone contact you? Have you received any official note or instructions? Did the school write any e-mail to the parents? Is someone else going to quarantine or just that one child? I think the teachers should be the focus of measures there.
I wish you and yours all the best.
Thank you.
No, no one at the school has contacted us (at least not yet). The only reason I even know about the boy being quarantined due to his parent having COVID is because my son's teacher had told the class today and explained that that's why he's not in school, and then my son came home and told me. At least today is Monday, though, which hopefully means that perhaps his mother just developed symptoms over the weekend and so hopefully her son would have been less likely to pass the virus on last week (though of course that could just be wishful thinking on my part).

But I wonder why that is or would be -- that smaller kids would be less likely to pass the virus on to adults. Does anyone know why exactly? One would think that the virus doesn't care and just wants to find another host. It seems odd to me that the virus would behave differently from other viruses in that it wouldn't be easily passed from a child to an adult.
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  #15983  
Old 02.11.2020, 22:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is exactly where you have gone wrong. Science can (sometimes) tell you what consequences your actions will have, it says nothing about what you should do, that's the question of policy. Which is political by definition.
For myself at least, I guess I was thinking of the term "political" more in terms of whether or not the virus / pandemic should be politicized and made political in that sense (e.g. politicians using the virus and the way they're handling it to try to get re-elected). So that's what I meant when I said that I agreed that it shouldn't be considered a political issue -- that it shouldn't be used as a means to get re-elected or for personal political agendas, etc.

So yes, again, of course it's the politicians who make the decisions in terms of policy, but just like with global warming, some politicians do choose to ignore the science and instead follow the advice of whatever suits their own preference or agenda.
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  #15984  
Old 02.11.2020, 22:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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We have had to accept now that we will probably not see our granchildren until Easter- perhaps ... Really tough- last time was for half-term in February. Really struggling with this.
It's a shitty situation. My parents are desperate to see us but we are in our 4th lockdown since march and now this new one... grr. My sympathies.


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Ouch. I'm sorry to hear that, Pancakes. I really hope everything will be all right, fingers crossed. As far as I know schools are not covid-19 hot spots. Children, especially those under the age of 12 are less susceptible to infection than adults. Apparently once they are infected they are less likely to pass the virus on to others. Out of curiosity, did someone contact you? Have you received any official note or instructions? Did the school write any e-mail to the parents? Is someone else going to quarantine or just that one child? I think the teachers should be the focus of measures there.
I wish you and yours all the best.

Schools are pretty much hotspots for all the germs. Kids are carriers AFAIK.
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  #15985  
Old 02.11.2020, 22:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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Schools are pretty much hotspots for all the germs. Kids are carriers AFAIK.
You are absolutely wrong.

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Data gathered worldwide are increasingly suggesting that schools are not hot spots for coronavirus infections. Despite fears, COVID-19 infections did not surge when schools and day-care centres reopened after pandemic lockdowns eased. And when outbreaks do occur, they mostly result in only a small number of people becoming ill.
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  #15986  
Old 02.11.2020, 22:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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You are absolutely wrong.
Most research disagrees. Just a few examples:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...of-sars-cov-2/
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...atric-hcp.html
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...s-and-children
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...ge-study-finds
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/public...9-transmission
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  #15987  
Old 02.11.2020, 22:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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You are absolutely wrong.
Not necessarily.

Kids are bigger coronavirus spreaders than many doctors realized – here’s how schools can lower the risk
https://theconversation.com/kids-are...he-risk-144562

"A large study from Korea published in July found that older children, ages 10 to 19, were just as likely as adults to spread the virus to others. Younger children were suspected of infecting fewer people; however, a hospital in Chicago found that children under 5 with mild to moderate COVID-19 actually had more coronavirus genetic material in their upper respiratory tracts than older children and adults."


Kids Are Getting COVID-19 at School and Spreading It to Families
https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...it-to-families

COVID-19 cases rising among US children as schools reopen
https://apnews.com/article/virus-out...be2247f0e3983c

Edit: Sorry, a bit of a cross-post with baboon.
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  #15988  
Old 02.11.2020, 22:53
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Re: Coronavirus

None of these support what you say and they are from August, with the exception the one about India.

So again, fear mongering at its best
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  #15989  
Old 02.11.2020, 23:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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Schools are pretty much hotspots for all the germs. Kids are carriers AFAIK.
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You are absolutely wrong.
No she isn’t. Schools ARE hotspots for germs, there is no disputing that fact.
Whether they are specifically hotspots for Covid is not yet clear.
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Old 02.11.2020, 23:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is exactly where you have gone wrong. Science can (sometimes) tell you what consequences your actions will have, it says nothing about what you should do, that's the question of policy. Which is political by definition.
This is one of the wisest quotations I have ever read. Thanks for sharing!
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Old 02.11.2020, 23:55
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Re: Coronavirus

An anecdote here, my daughter was made redundant at the beginning of August. She lives in the US -as a reference. She applied for unemployment compensation and was "approved" on August 15th. Great - except she received no payments despite her efforts.

She tried repeatedly to contact Unemployment offices in our area to no avail. 10 weeks later and she finally received retroactive payments - only after she contacted a State Congressman's office whose representative interceded on her behalf.

We were able to support our daughter during this time but how many are left adrift and have no income? I don't know what the answer is here but many are struggling. And it is not just the elderly and those compromised, but those who find themselves out of work and those living in poverty.

I wish I knew the answer ...

I should note, how many would think to contact their State Representative to help them? I would guess, not many...

Last edited by terrifisch; 03.11.2020 at 00:44. Reason: additional info
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  #15992  
Old 03.11.2020, 00:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's curious that the demographic more resistant to the virus (young people) is the most vulnerable to suicide (also young people).
I don't know about other countries, but WRT to CH you couldn't be more wrong.

Official data here.

(a bit late of a response but still warranted IMHO)
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  #15993  
Old 03.11.2020, 00:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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An anecdote here, my daughter was made redundant at the beginning of August. She lives in the US -as a reference. She applied for unemployment compensation and was "approved" on August 15th. Great - except she received no payments despite her efforts.

She tried repeatedly to contact Unemployment offices in our area to no avail. 10 weeks later and she finally received retroactive payments - only after she contacted a State Congressman's office whose representative interceded on her behalf.

We were able to support our daughter during this time but how many are left adrift and have no income? I don't know what the answer is here but many are struggling. And it is not just the elderly and those compromised, but those who find themselves out of work and those living in poverty.

I wish I knew the answer ...
I think this in some ways relates back to what we were saying earlier about how the pandemic shouldn't be a political issue in that it shouldn't be politicized for politician's personal agendas. The House (in the US) has relentlessly been trying to pass bills to get more financial aid to people but the Senate keeps refusing to approve it... All part of the little civil war that's been going on in the US Congress, and meanwhile it's the people who are suffering because of it.
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Old 03.11.2020, 00:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is exactly where you have gone wrong. Science can (sometimes) tell you what consequences your actions will have, it says nothing about what you should do, that's the question of policy. Which is political by definition.
I think Science does indeed say a lot about what people should do and what should be done. It's not like it's politicians who are studying this virus, its mutations and its patterns, etc. It was a team of scientists who went to China and first studied this virus and then issued a lengthy report about it, warning countries across the world about a pending pandemic. And it was scientists who predicted a second wave this autumn, and now here we are. It's also scientists who are desperately trying to develop a successful vaccine right now. It's also scientists who have helped developed the means we currently have for treating this virus.

So we trust in scientists to develop a vaccine and to help cure us when we're sick, but we shouldn't follow their advice when it comes to how to try to control a pandemic?
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Old 03.11.2020, 00:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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None of these support what you say and they are from August, with the exception the one about India.

So again, fear mongering at its best
Going back to lying yet again? A couple of quotes from the links

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Children’s role in spread of virus bigger than thought... I was surprised by the high levels of virus we found in children of all ages, especially in the first two days of infection,” says Lael Yonker, director of the MGH Cystic Fibrosis Center and lead author of the study. “I was not expecting the viral load to be so high. You think of a hospital, and of all of the precautions taken to treat severely ill adults, but the viral loads of these hospitalized patients are significantly lower than a ‘healthy child’ who is walking around with a high SARS-CoV-2 viral load.”

Transmissibility or risk of contagion is greater with a high viral load.
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Recent evidence suggests that children likely have the same or higher viral loads in their nasopharynx compared with adults7 and that children can spread the virus effectively in households and camp settings
Quote:
Can kids spread the coronavirus? Yes, children infected with the coronavirus can transmit it to other kids and adults, but whether they spread the illness more or less than adults is not yet clear. Although for the most part, children’s COVID-19 symptoms are milder than those of older people, evidence shows that infected kids carry at least as much of the virus in their mouths and noses as adults.
Says exactly what I said.
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Old 03.11.2020, 00:38
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Re: Coronavirus

I think there are quite a few steps between science finding out something and having it politically implemented by a government body. Those are different systems and on purpose. It looks like people here want to say that they respect science and they learn a lot from it, and somehow also automatically know how to decide governing policies for the entire country. That is quite a leap. First of all, scientists will disagree with one another, just like politicians will try to implement sci findings differently. Then, more diverse both systems are, higher quality it ensures but longer it takes, logically. Except the moments when policy decisions just have to be taken fast. They are but in a way that hides a lot of criteria we do not think about or we ignore because we do not like them. I do not think for a second that there are some decisions made certain way because there would be too little science behind them. They are certain way because there are different scientific positions and conflicting data. It takes a smart person wanting to have a science behind political decisions. It takes a smarter person to realize that there is more science to it, than just the obviously important epidemiology, virology or infectology.

There is a dude from CZ government (https://www.psp.cz/sqw/detail.sqw?id=6449) who got a bit tired of scientists not having the right language to get the right support of the population to get them on board when gov made place for them to run things, and tired of the government who took too long to comprehensively, in a few words state the measures being changed on daily basis. He is big now on Insta, his messages guide, are a few lines long and reassure people getting the most important info, without the sci details, terminology or opinions. I think that's good politics and it makes the country cohesive and supportive. It is also not negative, not political (no political jargon or emotions squeezing, drama, panic). It functions like navigation.
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Old 03.11.2020, 00:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is exactly where you have gone wrong. Science can (sometimes usually) tell you what consequences your actions will have, it says nothing about what you should do, that's the question of policy. Which is political by definition.
ftfy

Of course, politicians have the decision-making powers and can ignore science at their own risk and make their own decisions.

Ignoring science has its price, for example, the US, which is the world's most powerful and technologically advanced nation, has around 4% of the world's population and ca. 20% of the COVID-19 deaths.
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Old 03.11.2020, 01:59
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Re: Coronavirus

That's kinda offtopic, but still.

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So we trust in scientists to develop a vaccine and to help cure us when we're sick, but we shouldn't follow their advice when it comes to how to try to control a pandemic?
Scientists' advice is just their opinion on policy. They are naturally more informed than the average person, and that's why it seems natural at first glance to just follow it. But actually the science itself ends when the (hopefully correct) information is discovered and relayed to other scientists, policy makers and the broader society.

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I think Science does indeed say a lot about what people should do and what should be done.
Nope. Science has discovered that an electricity current of 0.1 ampers passing through the body is enough to kill. Now whether somebody should try to put their fingers into the electric socket is just a question about how much they want to risk their life, and that's not a scientific question. I hope the analogy is clear.
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  #15999  
Old 03.11.2020, 02:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Of course, politicians have the decision-making powers and can ignore science at their own risk and make their own decisions.

Ignoring science has its price, for example, the US, which is the world's most powerful and technologically advanced nation, has around 4% of the world's population and ca. 20% of the COVID-19 deaths.
In case you missed it, there was a film on BBC2 at 22:00 on Sunday night called..

'Totally Under Control: Trump and Covid-19'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000p36r

The makers got some great access and interviews. If you suspected the pandemic has been mishandled, this more than confirms it.

Trailer:

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Old 03.11.2020, 04:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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News from the Eastern Front: Czechs have R at 1. *careful and reserved victory dance follows* I know it's baby steps. 3 wks after lockdown started and today 7600 Covid ICU patients in hospitals.

But we need some good news. Any good news.
Oh, so lockdowns work?

Well I never.
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