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Old 07.11.2020, 13:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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It was obvious no matter of the rhetoric. Why do you think I post CZ updates here. It is easy to look at any other country with similar development..But I think it is a super hard job to balance the interest to inform with the interest to not panic. Say it too early and local hospitals reserve places firmly for their own. Say it too late and the community will not be ready for transfers. I think a lot is being done behind the scene but local news really inform of all, over 2000 soldiers called to health sector, transfers being announced, etc. While gov put out the same important rhetoric- do not mingle, keep social distances, especially those who risk hospitalisation. That's pretty consistent. CZ ran out of beds (well, staff) and we pay docs and nurses peanuts, have an army of them, it is considered unethical to make money on human health (and edu). M. Berset's FB was mentioned last night on the local news, so he's putting warnings out there left and right. I think now the info is accepted and not seen as allarmist.
Iam talking about the rethoric between cantons/hospitals, after clear instructions had been given by the BAG concerning elective interventions.
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  #16222  
Old 07.11.2020, 13:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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Iam talking about the rethoric between cantons/hospitals, after clear instructions had been given by the BAG concerning elective interventions.
You mean the recomendations?

I think that's where the problem is. Which isn't the problem but definition of federalism. Except in pandemics as people are learning. Hence M. Berset's effort to inform and recomend, also via personal channels. I think they are pacing themselves for the moments where orders will be inevitable..There must be a reason for this particular timing.
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Old 07.11.2020, 14:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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You mean the recomendations?

I think that's where the problem is. Which isn't the problem but definition of federalism. Except in pandemics as people are learning. Hence M. Berset's effort to inform and recomend, also via personal channels. I think they are pacing themselves for the moments where orders will be inevitable..There must be a reason for this particular timing.
You’re playing with semantics here.

It was perfectly clear what was expected of the hospitals yet some of them chose to ignore it. That’s a pretty dangerous game to play at times like this.
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Old 07.11.2020, 14:08
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Re: Coronavirus

To simply see a difference between a recomendation and a binding federal order? Quite important in CH.

It will happen. But then I think that they have to have a way to reinforce. And push on the private sector, too. Probably via subsidies.
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Old 07.11.2020, 17:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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You really need to stop with this victim mentality.
I figure she was Ok with your questions for clarification - at least to the extenct she replied, obviously. However, MC was, in your quote, replying to marton's asinine attempt at ridiculing her post. Not everything is about you.

It's far from the first time marton does that. It takes quite a small and petty mind to repeatedly ridicule non-native English speakers for their perhaps less-than-perfect English.
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Old 07.11.2020, 17:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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It was obvious no matter of the rhetoric. Why do you think I post CZ updates here.
Frankly I have no idea. Each country tries to cope with the pandemic the best way they can, and each situation is different. If it is because you're worried, I can be sympathetic with that. We've all mentioned our worries for family and friends who live in different parts of the world, or how our countries cope/don't cope with the pandemic. For many here it's more important what happens in the neighbouring countries, this affects us more than other places.
Anyways, back to our Swiss cantons, it seems that we're lacking a clear vision on a federative level.
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Old 07.11.2020, 17:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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I figure she was Ok with your questions for clarification - at least to the extenct she replied, obviously. However, MC was, in your quote, replying to marton's asinine attempt at ridiculing her post. Not everything is about you.

It's far from the first time marton does that. It takes quite a small and petty mind to repeatedly ridicule non-native English speakers for their perhaps less-than-perfect English.
I suggest you go back and read it all again more slowly.

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No. The usuals are trying to tell me I did not understand my own message. Which referred to old people dying in hundreds every day. CV palliative is that - caring for the dying ones and their very possibly infected close people by caring for the deceased. At one go.
I’ll help you by putting the relevant part in bold.

It was most certainly aimed at myself (not for the first time) and ennui and had absolutely zero nothing to do with ridiculing anybody’s English skills.
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Old 07.11.2020, 18:08
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Re: Coronavirus

There are indeed many of us here for whom English is not our MT. But palliative care means the same world over


Palliative care (derived from the Latin root palliare, or "to cloak") is an interdisciplinary medical caregiving approach aimed at optimizing quality of life and mitigating suffering among people with serious, complex illness.[1] Within the published literature, many definitions of palliative care exist; most notably, the World Health Organization describes palliative care as "an approach that improves the quality of life of patients and their families facing the problems associated with life-threatening illness, through the prevention and relief of suffering by means of early identification and impeccable assessment and treatment of pain and other problems, physical, psychosocial, and spiritual."
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Old 07.11.2020, 18:29
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Re: Coronavirus

How difficult is it to understand that knowing that your body will not be treated as a sick biohasard and thrown in a plastic bag (Covid routine done world over, Jackie) but in a dignified way IS a big part of palliative care, in CZ? And helps the grieving partners who are also often covid positive? Which part of that is not obvious? "You will have a tradition you wish for" is something that makes dying easier. I know palliative care, I grew up surrounded by docs, one researching palliative ways, hello. Whatever the linguists here assume, think before you assume. And have a bit of piety yourself talking about somebody's home struggling with infection, before you nitpick.

The news about lesser infection of deceased is indeed a big improvement for whatever is happening in places heavily impacted by Covid. It is easier to pass away knowing they will wash you, dress you, there will be funeral , etc. That's why palliative doctors are interested and media indeed, too. We do not have pastoral stuff, there is little room for anything else than medicine right now. Doctors talk of patients knowing when it is time to go - do all they can to make it better. Video good-byes, personal emails, ..Some patients are lucid until shortly before death.
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Old 07.11.2020, 18:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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How difficult is it to understand that knowing that your body will not be treated as a sick biohasard and thrown in a plastic bag (routine done with world over, Jackie) but in a dignified way IS a big part of palliative care, in CZ? And helps the grieving partners who are also often covid positive? Which part of that is not obvious? "You will have a tradition you wish for" is something that makes dying easier. I know palliative care, I grew up surrounded by docs, one researching palliative ways, hello. Whatever the linguists here assume, think before you assume. And have a bit of piety yourself talking about somebody's home struggling with infection, before you nitpick.

The news about lesser infection of deceased is indeed a big improvement for whatever is happening in places heavily impacted by Covid. It is easier to pass away knowing they will wash you, dress you, there will be funeral , etc. That's why palliative doctors are interested and media indeed, too. We do not have pastoral stuff, there is little room for anything else than medicine right now. Doctors talk of patients knowing when it is time to go - do all they can to make it better. Video good-byes, personal emails, ..Some patients are lucid until shortly before death.
Not a linguist, just someone who has been present for and supported both palliative and end of life care several times. Your description of palliation was not familiar to me, so I asked. But you could do with a bit of piety yourself.

It‘s interesting to understand the management of disease in other places, but I’ll not ask again ..... there are probably kinder sources elsewhere.
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Old 07.11.2020, 18:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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How difficult is it to understand that knowing that your body will not be treated as a sick biohasard and thrown in a plastic bag (Covid routine done world over, Jackie) but in a dignified way IS a big part of palliative care, in CZ? And helps the grieving partners who are also often covid positive? Which part of that is not obvious? "You will have a tradition you wish for" is something that makes dying easier. I know palliative care, I grew up surrounded by docs, one researching palliative ways, hello. Whatever the linguists here assume, think before you assume. And have a bit of piety yourself talking about somebody's home struggling with infection, before you nitpick.

The news about lesser infection of deceased is indeed a big improvement for whatever is happening in places heavily impacted by Covid. It is easier to pass away knowing they will wash you, dress you, there will be funeral , etc. That's why palliative doctors are interested and media indeed, too. We do not have pastoral stuff, there is little room for anything else than medicine right now. Doctors talk of patients knowing when it is time to go - do all they can to make it better. Video good-byes, personal emails, ..Some patients are lucid until shortly before death.
This has zero to do with nitpicking.
It doesn’t matter how many times you say it, whatever happens to a body after death has nothing whatsoever to do with palliative care anywhere else but in CZ (according to you).
It’s not about being pedantic or nitpicking it’s about using the term that the vast majority of people are familiar with in the right way.

It doesn’t matter how many times you say it, what you describe is referred to as pastoral care pretty much everywhere other than CZ. It is definitely not palliative care.

Martin had a point earlier, somebody should probably get you a bigger shovel now.
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  #16232  
Old 07.11.2020, 19:00
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Re: Coronavirus

See? This is what I mean, though. Pastoral care when there are so many deaths so fast just doesn't exist. And you keep insisting that what majority of people understand are these two different terms (that I know, thank you). Majority of people actually know that 'forget pastoral care, at least make the dying less horrific' is the situation now. It was in New York. China. It was in Italy. It was in CZ.

The actual reason why palliative care is putting pressure IS because pastoral anything ceased. Looks like you didn't understand that the 1st time.

It protects the dying and how they are treated after death helps those who may soon follow them. So palliative units campaigned to have the myth of post mortum contagion inspected and made it public. It is lesser than previously thought. We know thanks to them. Not thanks to inexistant pastoral care.
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Old 07.11.2020, 19:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Martin had a point earlier, somebody should probably get you a bigger shovel now.
If it was for your and Marton's predictions and perceptions about coronavirus you would have found China by digging from all the persistence you show no matter how wrong you've been all along
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Old 07.11.2020, 19:11
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Re: Coronavirus

Is it Groundhog day again? Stop the personal insults please.

In my country, by the way, palliative care is for people dying, pastoral care for that person and his/her loved ones. So I imagine a lot of people interpret this the same way.
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Old 07.11.2020, 19:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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If it was for your and Marton's predictions and perceptions about coronavirus you would have found China by digging from all the persistence you show no matter how wrong you've been all along
Could you please explain what you mean?
China is in the wrong direction to be found by digging?
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Old 07.11.2020, 19:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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I suggest you go back and read it all again more slowly.



I’ll help you by putting the relevant part in bold.

It was most certainly aimed at myself (not for the first time) and ennui and had absolutely zero nothing to do with ridiculing anybody’s English skills.
This couldn't be more ironic. Let me say it out loud as you can't grasp a simple post: The part in my post about riduculing others was not about you.

Ok, since you insist: MC apparently meant you, too. And you earned it.
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Old 07.11.2020, 19:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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Is it Groundhog day again? Stop the personal insults please.

In my country, by the way, palliative care is for people dying, pastoral care for that person and his/her loved ones. So I imagine a lot of people interpret this the same way.
Just hamsters on the Wheel of unproductivity.....


Anyway, excuse the pedantry for a moment, but as more and more people live longer with chronic and possibly incurable diseases, palliative care or palliation is being applied earlier in the course of disease...so it‘s not just for the dying - it can help control symptoms like pain, neuropathy, etc in cancer, diabetes, etc.. I have so many friends who‘ve benefitted from it.
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Old 07.11.2020, 19:46
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Re: Coronavirus

I am very sorry to hear you are unwell at the moment- and hope you will feel better soon.



We are all different, and that is good.


'It is easier to pass away knowing they will wash you, dress you, there will be funeral , etc.'


and I have to say, no, this does not apply to me, and not to many of my friends. Medical and palliative care is essential as long as you are alive, what happens later is of no interest to me at all- and I truly don't care. No funeral and no bother for me when I go, from Covid or anything else. Medical and palliative care, for sure - but only so far. No 'acharnement thérapeutique' for me (btw what is a good translation for the above).
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Old 07.11.2020, 19:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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This couldn't be more ironic. Let me say it out loud as you can't grasp a simple post: The part in my post about riduculing others was not about you.

Ok, since you insist: MC apparently meant you, too. And you earned it.
I don't know where I find the patience ..Thanks.

That's thing about Covid though, zero pastoral anything. I imagine that people realize that nobody can enter hospitals, churches. Czech palliative teams are strong, they are all MDs and they barged in to change the practice in order to create space for better conditions, limited since hospitals, ICUs and churches are sealed off. So - whatever pastoral definition people have, it is not happening. At least now the staff can wash the body, dress it..no bag.I read about an older lady (80) who was really sad that her husband couldn't be burried before in his clothes and that religious necklace. It was in the article about palliative units insisting on new research of real infection risk from dead bodies and got Autopsy Depts. doctors on board - and its true. Smaller risk. I think it will improve things.
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Old 07.11.2020, 20:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't know where I find the patience ..Thanks.

That's thing about Covid though, zero pastoral anything. I imagine that people realize that nobody can enter hospitals, churches. Czech palliative teams are strong, they are all MDs and they barged in to change the practice in order to create space for better conditions, limited since hospitals, ICUs and churches are sealed off. So - whatever pastoral definition people have, it is not happening. At least now the staff can wash the body, dress it..no bag.I read about an older lady (80) who was really sad that her husband couldn't be burried before in his clothes and that religious necklace. It was in the article about palliative units insisting on new research of real infection risk from dead bodies and got Autopsy Depts. doctors on board - and its true. Smaller risk. I think it will improve things.
Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floor from laughing.
The only people requiring patience are the ones dealing with your ridiculous posts.

Let me spell this out for you. Not everything is about CZ, there may be zero pastoral care going on there but that is not the case elsewhere.
You may refer to it as palliative care but calling it that doesn’t make it anything other than what it really is, it is still pastoral care.
Even if it is the palliative care teams who are doing the job it is still pastoral care.

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This couldn't be more ironic. Let me say it out loud as you can't grasp a simple post: The part in my post about riduculing others was not about you.

Ok, since you insist: MC apparently meant you, too. And you earned it.
I understood that perfectly well thank you.
What you didn’t grasp was that Martin’s post was not about what you thought it was.
It was not ridiculing anybody’s grasp of English.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 07.11.2020 at 21:53.
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