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  #16661  
Old 17.11.2020, 10:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Interesting....
Swiss health economist calls for severe punishments for corona skeptics. Including hefty fines, barring them from ICU beds if limited , etc

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lem...9-336082878013

How will that be implemented? Everyone will need to carry some kind of Covid loyalty card?

- I believe 100% in Corona (You get a hospital bed)
- I don't believe in Corona (You get kicked to the curbside)
- I am somewhere in the middle and don't know what to believe (You get half a bed)
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  #16662  
Old 17.11.2020, 10:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't see how we can use 300 million doses unless we're vaccinated at least a dozen times
every 3 month, remember?
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  #16663  
Old 17.11.2020, 10:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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Interesting....
Swiss health economist calls for severe punishments for corona skeptics. Including hefty fines, barring them from ICU beds if limited , etc

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lem...9-336082878013
how much time left to witch hunting and burning them? (just to improve ICU beds capacity, nothing personal)
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  #16664  
Old 17.11.2020, 10:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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how much time left to witch hunting and burning them? (just to improve ICU beds capacity, nothing personal)
Let's see first if they get those hefty fines and prison time for not complying with the rules.
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  #16665  
Old 17.11.2020, 10:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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Interesting....
Swiss health economist calls for severe punishments for corona skeptics. Including hefty fines, barring them from ICU beds if limited , etc

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lem...9-336082878013
One more economist proud to show economists know very little about politics and doing things in the real world:

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«Ceux qui ignorent volontairement les règles de distanciation sociale et d’hygiène doivent assumer la responsabilité de leurs actes.
I'm more worried about the people that are convinced of doing the right while failing miserably in real life: leaving the nose out of the mask, not staying at home even if sneezing/coughing frequently, not keeping distance in the supermarket/public transport, making reunions at home above the max people limit. If the fines are applied to them, welcome. If the fines are for people who think different.........this is wrong. It's like not giving a fine to someone who missed a traffic light because he believes in the rules. What matters are actions, not ideas.
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  #16666  
Old 17.11.2020, 11:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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Interesting....
Swiss health economist calls for severe punishments for corona skeptics. Including hefty fines, barring them from ICU beds if limited , etc

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lem...9-336082878013
Czech doctors raised their voices the same way but against smokers who suffer dificult Covid and need hospitalization. Even people who wear masks 24/7 or isolate very well still got infected in CZ because the viral load was really high and one was expected to still face certain risk and get ill when they really wouldn't expect it, attention is not 100% at all times. There is no bullet-proof protection and Czech health system knows it well. But smokers who need hospitalization for lung problems in Covid times exhausted the doctors and they published an appeal to the public cca month and a half ago.

Another news from the Eastern European Front - some medical personnel from US, GB and Deutschland arrived, the foreign medical professionals are impressed at the engagement, moral, determination and attention to detail of the local health system. Yo. Communities help eachother, too, try to influence my pople to not risk so much when they are being helpful to others, but it is futile. At least they got some extra PPE on its way.
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  #16667  
Old 17.11.2020, 11:03
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Re: Coronavirus

Actually he proposés a registration list of corona skeptics....

Talk about witch hunt...

When will the EF mods be providing such list to the Swiss authorities?

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How will that be implemented? Everyone will need to carry some kind of Covid loyalty card?

- I believe 100% in Corona (You get a hospital bed)
- I don't believe in Corona (You get kicked to the curbside)
- I am somewhere in the middle and don't know what to believe (You get half a bed)
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  #16668  
Old 17.11.2020, 11:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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how much time left to witch hunting and burning them? (just to improve ICU beds capacity, nothing personal)
When they say ICU capacity, I think it's not all about beds and equipment. Doctors and nurses don't grow on trees.
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  #16669  
Old 17.11.2020, 11:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Actually he proposés a registration list of corona skeptics....

Talk about witch hunt...

When will the EF mods be providing such list to the Swiss authorities?
It kinda explains why hospitals did not want to share their resources federally, at first. Maybe they thought it is Romands' fault. Romandie stuck strictly to the measures and high discipline and still got a really bad end of the CV stick - for multiple reasons. It is hard to prevent against something evil and often asymptomatic. The people that I saw in the early fall who kept little to no distance and no masks were in fact not in Romandie, here we have had to deal with the drill for twice as long and got used to being super cautious, imho. I hope the other part of CH behind the coronagraben are being careful too, even if their numbers aren't as high as here.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 17.11.2020 at 12:23.
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  #16670  
Old 17.11.2020, 11:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well, it might not be ethical as it's not their fault they're idiots but...one might be tempted to think like this along the way. I suppose people should be held responsible for their acts..
Yes, but getting COVID and feeling shit for 2 or 3 weeks is probably the apt and just punishment, not being left to die gasping for air. It's against the Hippocratic Oath.

Its no different to not treating a smoker, a fatty or an injured skier.
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  #16671  
Old 17.11.2020, 11:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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Actually he proposés a registration list of corona skeptics....

Talk about witch hunt...

When will the EF mods be providing such list to the Swiss authorities?
ADD THEM TO ZE LIST! So 2020
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  #16672  
Old 17.11.2020, 11:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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It kinaa explains why hospitals did not want to share their resources federally, at first. Maybe they thought it is Romands' fault. Romandie stuck strictly to the measures and high discipline and still got a really bad end of the CV stick - for multiple reasons. It is hard to prevent against something evil and often asymptomatic.The people that I saw in the early fall who kept little to no distance and no masks were in fact not in Romandie, here we have had to deal with the drill for twice as long and got used to being super cautious, imho. I hope the other part if CH behind the coronagraben are being careful too, even if their numbers aren't as high as here.
In the RTS video I shared yesterday it was acknowledged that the municipal elections in Valais and the fête de la bénichon in Fribough were a relâchement des mesures (relaxation of measures).

Sadly numbers don't lie, therefore two things may have occurred: (i) measures were not followed, (ii) measures are not useful. Choose one.
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  #16673  
Old 17.11.2020, 11:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, but getting COVID and feeling shit for 2 or 3 weeks is probably the apt and just punishment, not being left to die gasping for air. It's against the Hippocratic Oath.

Its no different to not treating a smoker, a fatty or an injured skier.
Of course. The punishment is for risking other people's lives, not their own.

(and of course not by refusing them medical treatment, there are other means)

I mean, you can be a corona denier as much as you wish, just keep yourself out of the way...
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Old 17.11.2020, 12:08
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Re: Coronavirus

Todays numbers are 4560 out of 19 k tests
Positivity rate 23.4 %

299 hospitalisations
142 death

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/de/overview

Last edited by Sigh; 17.11.2020 at 12:10. Reason: Added info
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  #16675  
Old 17.11.2020, 12:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Todays numbers are 4560 out of 19 k tests
Positivity rate 23.4 %

299 hospitalisations
142 death

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/de/overview
Tuesdays are always the lowest, but still this is definitely a positive trend!
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  #16676  
Old 17.11.2020, 12:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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Todays numbers are 4560 out of 19 k tests
Positivity rate 23.4 %

299 hospitalisations
142 death

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/de/overview
1 week ago - 5980
2 weeks ago - 6126

Clear now that the peak is definitely behind us. One does wonder if this would even be the case without any measures being implemented. For example Flu pandemics mostly have a similar shaped curve. Viruses just seem to do their thing
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Old 17.11.2020, 12:18
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Re: Coronavirus

I had a thought whilst out walking.

We've seen that vaccine effectiveness is of the order of 90-95%. Is it possible that natural infection has a similar effectiveness? It'd explain why there are occasional but low levels of reinfection.

If that's indeed the case, 3rd and subsequent infections should be very rare indeed.
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Old 17.11.2020, 12:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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ADD THEM TO ZE LIST! So 2020
Noooooo

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In the RTS video I shared yesterday it was acknowledged that the municipal elections in Valais and the fête de la bénichon in Fribough were a relâchement des mesures (relaxation of measures).

Sadly numbers don't lie, therefore two things may have occurred: (i) measures were not followed, (ii) measures are not useful. Choose one.
The relâchement made sense it you compare with other cantons, they probably thought. SLow spread versus no numbers seemed to justify it enough back then. I think there is something like a silent spread where dots are not connected together but they should be. In CZ it was elections as well, going on holidays in Spain, open markets, etc. But considering that people there wore masks religiously for months and just let go for a month - there you go. From being the best in the world (with Israel) to the worst daily cases and deaths in the world, within cca 2 months. 2nd lockdown is really hard on the economy and so they are opening up this week, slowly...baby steps but still steps. Kids need to progress. Still, I would not even count on Xmas if the world wants to mingle and people sit at the same table with their folks.

There is a thing that will in my opinion push the cantons with high cases towards relaxing the measures and cantons with low cases becoming more strict - there is a big intercantonal mobility, still. VD is still overpopulated with people from other cantons who really need to come to our IKEA in Vaud for some plastic Xmas trinkets made in China, or to our paper-shop to buy a glue stick. RIGHT NOW. It cannot wait. (and it is not even glitter-glue, meh).

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I had a thought whilst out walking.

We've seen that vaccine effectiveness is of the order of 90-95%. Is it possible that natural infection has a similar effectiveness? It'd explain why there are occasional but low levels of reinfection.

If that's indeed the case, 3rd and subsequent infections should be very rare indeed.
That theory sounds good...if the virus would not want to mutate. Tell him. That is the only thing that I see as a big unknown. Can 2nd and 3rd infections be in reality different strains?
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Last edited by MusicChick; 17.11.2020 at 13:36.
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  #16679  
Old 17.11.2020, 13:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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Todays numbers are 4560 out of 19 k tests
Positivity rate 23.4 %

299 hospitalisations
142 death

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/de/overview
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1 week ago - 5980
2 weeks ago - 6126

Clear now that the peak is definitely behind us. One does wonder if this would even be the case without any measures being implemented. For example Flu pandemics mostly have a similar shaped curve. Viruses just seem to do their thing
1 week ago: 243 hospitalizations, 107 deaths
2 weeks ago: 316 hospitalizations, 72 deaths

Clearly cases are coming off, the tougher numbers not so much yet. Might have to do with increasing share of more infections in older population. So let's not uncork the champagne too early. The example here in EF of the person with brain surgery delayed is sobering.
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  #16680  
Old 17.11.2020, 14:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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1 week ago: 243 hospitalizations, 107 deaths
2 weeks ago: 316 hospitalizations, 72 deaths

Clearly cases are coming off, the tougher numbers not so much yet. Might have to do with increasing share of more infections in older population. So let's not uncork the champagne too early. The example here in EF of the person with brain surgery delayed is sobering.
There is a lag between infections, hospitalizations and deaths. So when restrictions are imposed, the infection curve is the first to peak and go down, followed by the hospitalizations curve, then the deaths curve.
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