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Old 26.11.2020, 01:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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Irony is not your strong suit is it?
Ha - I've been very well behaved thank you!
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Old 26.11.2020, 08:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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University hospital Zürich reported yesterday there are 400 COVID patients in hospitals in the canton. At the height of the first wave, there were in 207.
Careful! You’ll be accused of hysteria.
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Old 26.11.2020, 08:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Nah. Obama is hot.
I prefer Michelle myself.
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Old 26.11.2020, 08:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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Belgianmum, is this the official song of this thread then?



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Old 26.11.2020, 08:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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TonyC, based on my experience it is perfectly normal in CH (and I think most of the Western world) to discuss with patients entering hospital their desires for end-of-life care should the worst case scenario come true. This is so totally NOT the same thing as "ordering at risk patients to declare DNAR". Have you ever been hospitalized here for anything more serious than a wounded ego? If you had, you might be aware of the fact that signing what is called an advance care directive is a completely normal thing to do. The concept has been around for ages and ages, it has nothing to do with Corona. The document is not a waiver: that is, it does not exist to remove liability from your health care provider or insurance agency. Its purpose is to clearly communicate what your wishes are should you end up in e.g. a situation that might require life support. I struggle to see what aspect of this practice you find disagreeable.

John H, I can completely believe that in Corona time someone in an at-risk group might be asked to clarify what their wishes would be for end-of-life care, as there is a maybe a 1% chance they would die. It totally makes sense that Covid patients in a certain risk group are asked whether or not they would like to be resuscitated or not. It frankly pisses me off a bit that some people would re-word this as "people over 60 are being asked to sign a no-resuscitation waiver at hospitals in CH".
The tone comes across as if you're having a dig, but the content appears as if you're agreeing with me

Ordering was the incorrect word, but the way in which this has been reported means that it has been misinterpreted by many readers. It's normal practice and basically another Covid non-story!
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Old 26.11.2020, 09:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Careful! You’ll be accused of hysteria.
In this thread "hysteria" is defined as responsible and accurate posting.
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Old 26.11.2020, 09:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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Can anybody point me to a story that says people over 60 are being asked to sign a no-resuscitation waiver at hospitals in CH ? One hospital, one canton, all of CH?

Mrs H says she read it on some FB group.. But I can't see any source.
I posted a link a few days ago. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/reuters...vance/46175294 It's not exactly as your wife's Facebook group described it, but I made the comment that it is a bit chilling.
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Old 26.11.2020, 09:24
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Re: Coronavirus

Concerns are increasing over the way Oxford University and AstraZeneca PLC have handled the early readout from trials of their coronavirus vaccine candidate, the Financial Times reported on Wednesday.

On Tuesday, Moncef Slaoui, the head of Operation Warp Speed, the US government's funding programme for vaccine development, disclosed that the subgroup that scored 90% was limited to people aged 55 or below, a demographic with lower risk of developing severe Covid-19, FT reported.

Oxford and AstraZeneca did not disclose the age breakdown on Monday, when results were released.

Note:- Concern was expressed when AstraZeneca released their results last Monday but did not release the underlying data like Pfizer and Moderna.

Helps to understand the Swiss more cautious approach to approving the new vaccines.

Rumoured the AstraZeneca is only around 60% effective for older people.
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Old 26.11.2020, 09:25
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Re: Coronavirus

If isolation can be worse than covid for the nursing home residents, imagine how bad it is for the general population?!

Isolation may be a greater risk than COVID-19 for residents of Canada's nursing homes
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Old 26.11.2020, 10:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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I posted a link a few days ago. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/reuters...vance/46175294 It's not exactly as your wife's Facebook group described it, but I made the comment that it is a bit chilling.
Cultural differences among countries. I broke my left arm in several fragments some years ago on the other side of the Atlantic. Before the long surgery to put it together, I remembered I filled out a form declaring which adult I designated to make choices about my treatment while I was unconscious. I guess here they take a bit more personal freedom approach where the person under treatment makes the choices in advance and leave them in a document.

Not sure what option is best. When you put your wishes in paper, you're making a decision based only on assumptions about future events. When you give power to other one to take decisions, this other person faces the decisions with all relevant information available but may not follow your will. So, idealism Vs informed choice made by someone else. I'd would not say chilling, just a different approach to the issue of who makes a decision when someone doesn't wake up.
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Old 26.11.2020, 10:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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The tone comes across as if you're having a dig, but the content appears as if you're agreeing with me

Ordering was the incorrect word, but the way in which this has been reported means that it has been misinterpreted by many readers. It's normal practice and basically another Covid non-story!

Sorry Tony, I read your post too quickly and thought you were being alarmist, now that I read it again you were saying exactly what I did. Totally on the same page as you, sorry for the mix-up.
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Old 26.11.2020, 11:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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Cultural differences among countries. I broke my left arm in several fragments some years ago on the other side of the Atlantic. Before the long surgery to put it together, I remembered I filled out a form declaring which adult I designated to make choices about my treatment while I was unconscious. I guess here they take a bit more personal freedom approach where the person under treatment makes the choices in advance and leave them in a document.

Not sure what option is best. When you put your wishes in paper, you're making a decision based only on assumptions about future events. When you give power to other one to take decisions, this other person faces the decisions with all relevant information available but may not follow your will. So, idealism Vs informed choice made by someone else. I'd would not say chilling, just a different approach to the issue of who makes a decision when someone doesn't wake up.
Yes, actually I agree with you and am pretty pragmatic about end of life care (I am a member of EXIT for example). I suppose I dislike the concept of raising the issue in a pandemic when beds are running short. It would seem to me that the request to consider what one might want and the system being stretched aren't unconnected. I wouldn't want to think that anyone felt pressured in any way, for example, an older person. There's been such a lot of casual talk which basically suggests that the elderly are expendable. If my mother were to receive a message like this she would automatically think that she should sign a DNR. MusicChick made the comment that considering what one would want and making a decision is rather different to being asked to do so by a Doctor. That's the part that chills me.
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Old 26.11.2020, 12:10
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Re: Coronavirus

Todays published numbers 4509 out of 28k tests

198 hospitalisations
79 death

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/de/overview
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Old 26.11.2020, 12:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, actually I agree with you and am pretty pragmatic about end of life care (I am a member of EXIT for example). I suppose I dislike the concept of raising the issue in a pandemic when beds are running short. It would seem to me that the request to consider what one might want and the system being stretched aren't unconnected. I wouldn't want to think that anyone felt pressured in any way, for example, an older person. There's been such a lot of casual talk which basically suggests that the elderly are expendable. If my mother were to receive a message like this she would automatically think that she should sign a DNR. MusicChick made the comment that considering what one would want and making a decision is rather different to being asked to do so by a Doctor. That's the part that chills me.
I was 26 YO at the time when a doctor asked me to choose what to do with my organs, and someone to decide over my life If I didn't wake up from the general anesthesia. No pandemic, just standard procedure. I guess the organs of a healthy 26 YO where worthy of making the paperwork right. Of course, the doctor did not want to kill me, but if I became de 1 in 100K that didn't wake up, several lives could be saved.

My feeling is that what we need is education and open discussions, not treating the elderly with kid gloves to avoid uncomfortable talks. A bit like talking to children about sex, if you don't want some stranger telling stupid things or scaring your relatives....better do it yourself first.
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Old 26.11.2020, 12:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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Todays published numbers 4509 out of 28k tests

198 hospitalisations
79 death

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/de/overview
The positive rate is going down slowly, which is a very good sign.
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Old 26.11.2020, 12:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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I broke my left arm in several fragments some years ago on the other side of the Atlantic.

What happened? Are you ok now?
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Old 26.11.2020, 12:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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What happened? Are you ok now?
Jumping a ramp on my MTB. I feel grateful for living during these times: full recovery. I guess I could have been disabled for life just by being born 30-40 years earlier. No consequences beyond being noticed by my now wife for the first time. I was being the idiot in a party showing to my friends all the external rods and screws that kept the radius together. She said what an idiot at the time, but she didn't forget the idiot

I guess the point is we all have to face medical decisions sooner or later. My mom had troubles with my grandma refusing treatment. She had to let her go My dad is crazy, he got mad at the doctor and almost assaulted him when the doctor said sorry, we cannot do anything else (grandma was over 100 YO and unconscious for several days). These things happen even without pandemics.

I think the best that can be done today is bring some counseling people to the hospitals who are not doctors to have the difficult conversation with patients. I guess if someone apart from the doctor makes the difficult questions it's a bit less hard to process for patients.
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Old 26.11.2020, 13:06
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Re: Coronavirus

Public interest notice
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Two members of Sweden's royal family, Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia, are quarantining after testing positive for Covid-19,
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Old 26.11.2020, 13:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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I was 26 YO at the time when a doctor asked me to choose what to do with my organs, and someone to decide over my life If I didn't wake up from the general anesthesia. No pandemic, just standard procedure. I guess the organs of a healthy 26 YO where worthy of making the paperwork right. Of course, the doctor did not want to kill me, but if I became de 1 in 100K that didn't wake up, several lives could be saved.

My feeling is that what we need is education and open discussions, not treating the elderly with kid gloves to avoid uncomfortable talks. A bit like talking to children about sex, if you don't want some stranger telling stupid things or scaring your relatives....better do it yourself first.
I absolutely agree but it's the timing of this. Obviously your surgeon was never going to kill you in order to harvest your organs, but neither was he/she after them to fulfill some global shortage. This announcement calls for the vulnerable, those over 60, those with heart failure and diabetes to consider a DNR. In my mind, this is directly linked to the pandemic and seems to be suggesting that those people who may require more intervention should consider foregoing that presumably so that it may be offered to a younger, less vulnerable, healthier individual. In truth that is exactly what will happen if things don't improve but there is already a triage protocol in place. In my view 60 is not elderly ... althougn I am exactly 60 year's old!
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Old 26.11.2020, 13:39
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Re: Coronavirus

Actually, on reflection, maybe I have read too much into this. I just found it a bit unsettling.
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