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Old 30.11.2020, 13:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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I feel so paranoid about this as I am one of those people - I constantly use my own hand sanitizer that is in my pocket at all times. I have sensitive hands & the free products at the stores isn't the best.
The one I used at Co-op the other day would have been fine for your hands. I think it was so watered down that you could probably safely drink it.

Shame on Co-op.
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  #17302  
Old 30.11.2020, 15:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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I feel so paranoid about this as I am one of those people - I constantly use my own hand sanitizer that is in my pocket at all times. I have sensitive hands & the free products at the stores isn't the best.
I feel the same way. I use my own disinfectant and wear surgical gloves. I am rather disconcerted at the thought of all those hands that have pressed the pump at public disinfectant stations.
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Old 30.11.2020, 15:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well we do, scientific opinion on these matters was pretty much settled, a century or so of scientific research, until the world took leave of its senses in March 2020 for reasons I still can't begin to understand, and decided to copy the Chinese.

It's remarkable how neither masks nor lockdowns were mentioned in any public health document on pandemic response published prior to 2020.
More TC misinformation, I do not understand why you want to share your fanciful ideas as if they were facts.
As just one example from many, I refer you to the Swiss Influenza Pandemic Plan 2018 which mentions masks 76 times.

From chapter 5.3 in the same document
  • School closures
  • Bans on events
  • Close down public-sector or private-sector firms
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Old 30.11.2020, 18:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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I feel the same way. I use my own disinfectant and wear surgical gloves. I am rather disconcerted at the thought of all those hands that have pressed the pump at public disinfectant stations.
I wonder why Migros and Coop cannot install contactless sanitisers at least in all of the bigger stores (like Migros MM). Even some small shops have them.
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Old 30.11.2020, 18:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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More TC misinformation, I do not understand why you want to share your fanciful ideas as if they were facts.
As just one example from many, I refer you to the Swiss Influenza Pandemic Plan 2018 which mentions masks 76 times.

From chapter 5.3 in the same document
  • School closures
  • Bans on events
  • Close down public-sector or private-sector firms
I am shocked. Tony would not try to deceive us, would he? Maybe he did not know.
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Old 30.11.2020, 19:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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I am shocked. Tony would not try to deceive us, would he? Maybe he did not know.
From the NHS 2019:

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Although there is a perception that the wearing of facemasks in the community and in households may be beneficial, there is in fact very little evidence of widespread benefit from their use in these settings.
http://www.cwp.nhs.uk/media/5061/ep8...c-flu-plan.pdf

From the CDC 2017:

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Use of Face Masks in Community Settings
Face masks (disposable surgical, medical, or dental procedure masks) are widely used by health care workers to prevent respiratory infections both in health care workers and patients. They also might be worn by ill persons during severe, very severe, or extreme pandemics to prevent spread of influenza to household members and others in the community. However, little evidence supports the use of face masks by well persons in community settings, although some trials conducted during the 2009 H1N1 pandemic found that early combined use of face masks and other NPIs (such as hand hygiene) might be effective (supplementary Chapter 3 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/44313)

Voluntary home quarantine: CDC might recommend voluntary home quarantine of exposed household members as a personal protective measure during severe, very severe, or extreme influenza pandemics in combination with other personal protective measures such as respiratory etiquette and hand hygiene. If a member of the household is symptomatic with confirmed or probable pandemic influenza, then all members of the household should stay home for up to 3 days (the estimated incubation period for seasonal influenza),¶¶ starting from their initial contact with the ill person, to monitor for influenza symptoms..
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/rr/pdfs/rr6601.pdf

From 2006:

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In Asia during the SARS period, many people in the affected communities wore surgical masks when in public. But studies have shown that the ordinary surgical mask does little to prevent inhalation of small droplets bearing influenza virus.56 The pores in the mask become blocked by moisture from breathing, and the air stream simply diverts around the mask. There are few data available to support the efficacy of N95 or surgical masks outside a healthcare setting. N95 masks need to be fit-tested to be efficacious and are uncomfortable to wear for more than an hour or two.55,57 More important, the supplies of such masks are too limited to even ensure that hospitals will have necessary reserves.

Home Quarantine
Voluntary home quarantine would be requested of individuals who are asymptomatic but who have had substantial contact with a person who has influenza—primarily household members. The aim of voluntary home quarantine is to keep possibly contagious, but still asymptomatic, people out of circulation. This sounds logical, but this measure raises significant practical and ethical issues.

If implemented on a communitywide scale, logistical requirements related to ensuring that quarantined households across a community had appropriate care and support would be necessary. How compliant the public might be is uncertain. Parents would presumably be willing to stay home and care for sick children, but it is not known, for example, whether college students would agree to be interned with infected dorm-mates.

Even if home quarantine were generally acceptable to the community, individuals may not have the economic resources to stay at home. Few employers currently have provisions for paid absence unless the workers themselves are ill. For those who are hourly workers or who are self-employed, the potential loss of wages as a result of having to stay home simply because an individual had had contact with sick people might not be acceptable or feasible.

Home quarantine also raises ethical questions. Implementation of home quarantine could result in healthy, uninfected people being placed at risk of infection from sick household members. Practices to reduce the chance of transmission (hand-washing, maintaining a distance of 3 feet from infected people, etc.) could be recommended, but a policy imposing home quarantine would preclude, for example, sending healthy children to stay with relatives when a family member becomes ill. Such a policy would also be particularly hard on and dangerous to people living in close quarters, where the risk of infection would be heightened.

Quarantine. As experience shows, there is no basis for recommending quarantine either of groups or individuals. The problems in implementing such measures are formidable, and secondary effects of absenteeism and community disruption as well as possible adverse consequences, such as loss of public trust in government and stigmatization of quarantined people and groups, are likely to be considerable.
http://www.upmc-biosecurity.org/webs...ndemicflu.html

And left the best until last from the WHO in 2019:

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Quarantine of exposed individuals

Home quarantine of exposed individuals to reduce transmission is not recommended because there is no obvious rationale for this measure, and there would be considerable difficulties in implementing it.

Contact tracing

Active contact tracing is not recommended in general because there is no obvious rationale for it in most Member States. This intervention could be considered in some locations and circumstances to collect information on the characteristics of the disease and to identify cases, or to delay widespread transmission in the very early stages of a pandemic in isolated communities.

OVERALL RESULT OF EVIDENCE ON FACE MASKS

Ten RCTs were included in the meta-analysis, and there was no evidence that facemasks are effective in reducing transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

Reusable cloth face masks are not recommended. Medical face masks are generally not reusable, and an adequate supply would be essential if the use of face masks was recommended. If worn by a symptomatic case, that person might require multiple masks per day for multiple days of illness.

According to the GRADE approach, there was moderate quality of evidence involving >6000 participants that face masks are ineffective in reducing influenza transmission in the community.
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...516839-eng.pdf
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  #17307  
Old 30.11.2020, 19:13
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Re: Coronavirus

Never mentioned, huh? Masks and "lockdowns" had been widely used during the Spanish flu.
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  #17308  
Old 30.11.2020, 19:13
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Re: Coronavirus

Masks were discouraged until the moment the Swiss Federation purchased some 1B worth of masks I guess some of you want to forget that

Anyway, from the cool and logical Sweden, students organize parties to infect themselves from covid so they can be immune and not be bothered anymore.

Can't say I blame them! Check out the police report:

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It was the police themselves who made the report. It came to the knowledge of the police that students in high school actively seek out people they know are ill with covid-19 to become infected themselves. Then the plan is to spread the infection further.

According to the application, the purpose will be to become immune to the student this spring.

The police held an interrogation on Monday, but at lunchtime they closed the investigation.

- We have no plaintiffs, no suspects and nothing to go on, says on-duty preliminary investigation leader Niklas Stjernlöf.

In addition, Niklas Stjernlöf believes that it is unclear whether the action is criminal.

- It is extremely doubtful if it is a crime. You can compare it to parents who seek out other children with chickenpox, it's about the same thing.
Indeed it is!
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Old 30.11.2020, 19:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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Masks were discouraged until the moment the Swiss Federation purchased some 1B worth of masks I guess some of you want to forget that

Anyway, from the cool and logical Sweden, students organize parties to infect themselves from covid so they can be immune and not be bothered anymore.

Can't say I blame them! Check out the police report:



Indeed it is!

The world is full of morons.
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Old 30.11.2020, 19:28
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Re: Coronavirus

Unfortunately the Weekend numbers are disappointingly high (8782 vs 9751 last week) - seems likely R is already at or very near 1 and increasing.

Realistically bars and restaurants will be shut down except for takeaway before Xmas unless the trend changes. Im glad the authorities delayed putting restrictions in when R was low - but now we have both high cases and a high R it looks necessary.
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  #17311  
Old 30.11.2020, 19:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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Unfortunately the Weekend numbers are disappointingly high (8782 vs 9751 last week) - seems likely R is already at or very near 1 and increasing.

Realistically bars and restaurants will be shut down except for takeaway before Xmas unless the trend changes.
0.94 according to this, and probably higher in the German part.

https://ibz-shiny.ethz.ch/covid-19-re/
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Old 30.11.2020, 19:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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0.94 according to this, and probably higher in the German part.

https://ibz-shiny.ethz.ch/covid-19-re/
Probably the time for action is now. Unless positivity has been falling then possibly we could give it another week.

If action is taken now Xmas could be safeish too.
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Old 30.11.2020, 20:06
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Re: Coronavirus

You think you have a problem?



plus



Now what?
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Old 30.11.2020, 20:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Probably the time for action is now. Unless positivity has been falling then possibly we could give it another week.

If action is taken now Xmas could be safeish too.
16.7% last Monday, 16.0% today.

In the link I posted, you can find Re per canton (best in the data tables). AG at frickin' 1.09.
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Old 30.11.2020, 20:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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Masks were discouraged until the moment the Swiss Federation purchased some 1B worth of masks
Or the other way round - governments couldn't encourage masks until they had enough to go round.

I remember last spring, all pharmacies had signs saying: "We don't have any face masks or hand sanitizer" (or gloves or even thermometers!). They were scarce even for health workers!

In order to implement a mask mandate, you need to make millions of them available for the population. Otherwise, medical stocks would get looted. Indeed, there were reports of ambulances being broken into for supplies.
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Old 30.11.2020, 21:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Unfortunately the Weekend numbers are disappointingly high (8782 vs 9751 last week) - seems likely R is already at or very near 1 and increasing.

Realistically bars and restaurants will be shut down except for takeaway before Xmas unless the trend changes. Im glad the authorities delayed putting restrictions in when R was low - but now we have both high cases and a high R it looks necessary.
The French cantons all took strong measures and really drove down their infection rates. The time to double for those cantons is now up close to or even over 100 days.

The German cantons often did the minimum and are rewarded with static or even increasing infection rates. These cantons are now more and more the ones driving the average and why the curves are flattening again.

Very interesting correlation between strength of measures and new infections. Clifton must hate it.

Last edited by baboon; 30.11.2020 at 21:29.
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Old 30.11.2020, 21:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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The French cantons all took strong measures and really drove down their infection rates. The time to double for those cantons is now up close to or even over 100 days.

The German cantons did the minimum and are rewarded with static or even increasing infection rates. These cantons are now more and more the ones driving the average and why the curves are flattening again.

Very interesting correlation between strength of measures and new infections. Clifton must hate it.
What is really strange though is the situation in Germany. Much stricter than CH, lower numbers per capita, but numbers don't come down and in some parts go up a lot. Either they are all having secret parties in the basement or there are other factors that measures alone cannot explain.
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Old 30.11.2020, 21:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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The world is full of morons.
I can name at least two on here!
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Old 30.11.2020, 21:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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I can name at least two on here!
(popcorn)
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Old 30.11.2020, 21:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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Either they are all having secret parties in the basement
In some larger cities it is that, yes. Not in the basement though 😀

But then, have a look at the Glatt Zentrum, can assume that is similar to having parties...
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