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  #17681  
Old 09.12.2020, 09:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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Switzerland will authorize COVID-19 vaccines in January. Then they plan to start vaccinating 70,000 people per day. By the summer, 6 million people in the country will be vaccinated.
Swissmedic are now doubting that plan as they might not have finished their approval by January

https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/verwirr...9-2f684ff3364b (requires registration)
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  #17682  
Old 09.12.2020, 09:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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I find it totally unfair that Romandie cantons were very proactive at the beginning of the second wave, closing restaurants and cultural places, successfully reducing contamination; and now that we are ready to open again, we have to pay the price for the Swiss Germans who couldn’t make such decisions without being forced by the Confederation.
I agree. I think the Swiss-Germans were counting on the population being more disciplined (I know, I know, don't shoot the messenger) and thought people would be wise enough and more pro-active without authorities telling everyone what to do.
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  #17683  
Old 09.12.2020, 09:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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Face masks considerably reduce COVID-19 cases in Germany https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2.../02/2015954117

If only masks had been implemented nationwide in countries far sooner... the difference in infections would likely have been dramatic.
Just reposting this as it happened while a certain member was on his "holiday". Mr Clifton - care to comment?
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  #17684  
Old 09.12.2020, 09:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just reposting this as it happened while a certain member was on his "holiday". Mr Clifton - care to comment?
Why would we want that? He will never see it the way we want him to see it...
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  #17685  
Old 09.12.2020, 09:52
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Re: Coronavirus

A poignant op-ed from the NYTs

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/o...?smid=em-share
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Denouncing others might make you feel good about yourself, but it rarely corrects bad behavior.

By Aaron E. Carroll
Dr. Carroll is a pediatrician, a professor and a contributing opinion writer.

Last month, a war erupted in America over whether to celebrate Thanksgiving if it involved visiting family and friends. My Twitter feed was filled with people railing against scenes of crowded airports, as if those traveling to see loved ones were attacking them personally.

These angry judgments put people on the defensive. They fear they will be reproached for their choices. They’re not wrong. When we see people gathering in groups or going about without a mask or engaging in other activities we deem unsafe, we condemn them. Too often, we do so publicly.

Shaming occurs in private, too. I see family and friends scolding people for certain activities they engage in. Some of the activities are easy to denounce, like attending large indoor rallies. Others are smaller perceived infractions, like getting a massage or playing on a sports team. The anger is there either way.

All of this judgment is counterproductive, even when the behavior in question is indisputably reckless. For one thing, drawing attention to aberrant unwanted behavior risks “normalizing” it. Although very few parents refuse to immunize their children (only about 1 percent get no vaccines at all), widespread condemnation of the so-called anti-vaxxers makes it seem as if they are a significant movement. The same is true of the anti-lockdown protesters: They were small in number — indeed, most Americans were perfectly willing to comply with shelter-in-place policies — but the disproportionate news coverage of them made it seem otherwise.

Another problem with judging people for engaging in risky behavior is that it leads to judging them for the consequences of that behavior. It’s a small step from belittling people who don’t take sufficient coronavirus precautions to belittling people for contracting Covid-19.

Viewing illness as a personal failing is not only morally misguided; it’s also damaging from a public health perspective. Many people don’t want to find out if they are infected, even if they are sick, because they worry that others will wonder what they did “wrong.” Some who are infected even hide their status, for fear that those they’ve been near will be angry at them for putting them at risk.

Such fears are entirely rational. Lots of people get angry when they find themselves infected with the coronavirus, wanting to know which person they came into contact with is to blame.

We don’t play this “blame game” with influenza, even when it’s an especially bad flu season. But we are doing it with Covid-19.

The focus on blame is unhelpful, because what really matters is that people do as much as they reasonably can to prevent the spread of the disease, not that everyone adhere to the same set of rigid standards. I choose not to go inside friends’ homes, but I do eat outdoors at restaurants; other people might do the opposite. What’s important is that we all try to minimize risk.
While some people may have legitimate reasons to be upset (say, if they were infected by a co-worker who refused to wear a mask or stay home after developing flulike symptoms), anger and hectoring are rarely the way to make things better. Shaming others might make you feel good about yourself, but it rarely corrects bad behavior. Indeed, it often backfires. It can harden feelings and drive bad behavior underground. That’s exactly what we don’t want.

Consider adolescents and sex. We can tell young people never to have sex and then demean them if they do anyway and contract a disease or get pregnant. But the evidence suggests it’s much more productive to talk about safe sex and to help them deal with any adverse consequences of having sex. This approach also makes it more likely they will come in for testing, counseling and treatment if they need it.

Likewise, we can lecture people about eating more healthfully and stigmatize those who don’t, but it rarely results in behavioral change. It’s much more effective to assist them, compassionately, in determining what prevents them from making better decisions.

The same is true of Covid-19 shaming. We can demand that people stop socializing and cancel their holidays entirely, but as we saw over Thanksgiving, that doesn’t work. Many people traveling for the holiday had made their plans, bought their tickets and scheduled their vacation days many months before. It’s not their fault that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention finally got around to putting out a warning about travel a week before the holiday.

In addition, we too often fail to recognize that the rules aren’t fair. Some gatherings are deemed acceptable; others are forbidden. Some services are deemed essential; others are not. The reasons for these decisions are seldom consistent. Lots of people were told that while it wasn’t safe to gather with 10 relatives in their homes, it was still somehow permissible to gather with those same 10 people — and many, many others — in a restaurant or bar. It’s understandable that people respond by fashioning a set of rules that makes more sense to them.

We could also do a better job of appreciating that many people who don’t meet our standards for safe behavior are unable to — not that they choose not to. Many people can’t work at home. Many have to rely on public transportation. Many don’t have the luxury of backyards for socializing. I can remember reading numerous articles early in the pandemic about how to make sure delivery food was virus-free. I wish there had been more articles about how to make sure all Americans got the food they need.

I understand that Covid-19 shaming is rooted in frustration. We’re angry about our inability to get a handle on the pandemic. But in our quest to scold and lay blame, even when we’re publicly calling out truly bad actors, we’re just making ourselves feel superior, which only makes it harder to achieve the solidarity needed for shared sacrifice.

We can all do better; we’re all in this together. This is just a virus, one that’s too easily transmitted to stigmatize its effects. The only shame we should associate with Covid-19 is that our country has done so little to fight it
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  #17686  
Old 09.12.2020, 10:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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Have to say you make more sense to me than anybody else in this thread. Everything you say is considered and moderate. Neither hyperbolic nor dismissive of the risks.
Thank you, likewise. It is also more interesting that way instead of just constantly repeating the same old points.
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  #17687  
Old 09.12.2020, 10:08
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Re: Coronavirus

Shaming is rarely effective. As Joe Biden keeps saying, we're fighting the virus, not each other. I think others have said pretty much the same.

But it's hard not to be angry/frustrated/tired of people who appear to be selfish/clueless/delusional. That clearly demonstrates my bias. We all have those too.

A whole range of feelings.
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  #17688  
Old 09.12.2020, 10:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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Swissmedic are now doubting that plan as they might not have finished their approval by January

https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/verwirr...9-2f684ff3364b (requires registration)
I asked my children's pediatrician yesterday about vaccination. What is clear is that front line medical staff basically know nothing yet. Guessing late Jan.-Feb. for first round (vulnerables) most likely given by hospitals, second round will be spring-summer most likely. What is clear he said the Moderna vaccine will not be used, at least not initially, as no freezer capacity to deal with it. Phizer one will be first most likely.
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  #17689  
Old 09.12.2020, 10:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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Everything can be find here

Changes of 9 December 2020:

Rules for ski resorts and winter sports areas
Rules for businesses
Singing
New rules for restaurants
Recommendation for private gatherings
Stronger recommendation to work from home

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...es-bundes.html

I heard that cantonal schools are considering going online in the first week after the holiday but they might not be the only ones.
Actually that's the rules from last weeks' announcement that go into effect today. There's a new set due to be announced on Friday, probably coming into effect on Saturday. According to the press these include...:

- Shops, restaurants, sports facilities to close at 19:00 and on Sundays
- Maximum 5 persons from 2 households at private meetings
- No "cultural" activities at all
- No public meetings at all except religious ones
- If there is no further improvement all non-essential shops and all restaurants plus all indoor sport to be shut from 18 December

Skiing - as an outdoor sport - would be allowed.

https://www.20min.ch/story/diese-cor...t-656801697313 (I got some further detail from the Tagi)
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  #17690  
Old 09.12.2020, 10:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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What is clear he said the Moderna vaccine will not be used, at least not initially, as no freezer capacity to deal with it. Phizer one will be first most likely.
I think you misunderstood him/her, it's the other way round. The Moderna one can be kept at room temp for up to 12 hours, standard fridge temp up to 30 days and standard freezer up to 6 months. It's the Pfizer one that needs dry ice for up to 5 days and -70c up to 6 months.

This is one of the reasons why the Swiss are securing additional few millions jabs from Moderna. Well, another reason for this is that it's being produced by the Basel-based Lonza
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  #17691  
Old 09.12.2020, 11:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Back in the normal winter season, I did get upset at co-workers who would come in needlessly to work sick, as I have an illness that is exacerbated by any flu or cold like virus as it puts me out of commission for a long period of time.

I in general am fed up with selfish people and have been for some time - COVID-19 just puts a spotlight on the selfish nature of humans. No, you should not travel, inconvenience yourself for just one year - is it that hard to ask? I don't expect people to lock themselves in their homes, but just make a little bit of an effort and stop complaining. Sorry not sorry.
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Old 09.12.2020, 11:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Back in the normal winter season, I did get upset at co-workers who would come in needlessly to work sick, as I have an illness that is exacerbated by any flu or cold like virus as it puts me out of commission for a long period of time.
In all fairness I've seen both extremes: people "working from home" from their vacation houses in Spain/France since March and blocking their agendas for pretty much the whole day with fake appointments. Also there are people like myself, that have been going back to the office every day and I insist on my team to be in the office as well, unless they have even the slightest symptom, in which case they are sent to the Covid test center 15 min away from the office and stay at home until results are out.
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Old 09.12.2020, 11:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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- Maximum 5 persons from 2 households at private meetings
does anyone know if 5 persons is including kids? tried looking at 20min article below and could not find anything
https://www.20min.ch/story/diese-cor...t-656801697313

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Skiing - as an outdoor sport - would be allowed.
This is how social distancing was been met in one of the SKI resorts and has met with lot of criticism




source : https://planetski.eu/2020/12/06/huge...-verbier-lift/
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Old 09.12.2020, 11:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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In all fairness I've seen both extremes: people "working from home" from their vacation houses in Spain/France since March and blocking their agendas for pretty much the whole day with fake appointments. Also there are people like myself, that have been going back to the office every day and I insist on my team to be in the office as well, unless they have even the slightest symptom, in which case they are sent to the Covid test center 15 min away from the office and stay at home until results are out.
(Apologies if you are customer facing - but the context of your post indicates this is not the case.)

So the strong recommendation of the BAG means nothing to you? Sorry, but imo this makes you a seriously <redacted> boss and I'm very grateful I am not in your team.

You realise that people are infectious 2 days before the slightest symptom shows?

Last edited by Ace1; 11.12.2020 at 15:29. Reason: removed insulting term
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  #17695  
Old 09.12.2020, 11:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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Back in the normal winter season, I did get upset at co-workers who would come in needlessly to work sick, as I have an illness that is exacerbated by any flu or cold like virus as it puts me out of commission for a long period of time.

I in general am fed up with selfish people and have been for some time - COVID-19 just puts a spotlight on the selfish nature of humans. No, you should not travel, inconvenience yourself for just one year - is it that hard to ask? I don't expect people to lock themselves in their homes, but just make a little bit of an effort and stop complaining. Sorry not sorry.
I see the point of the article being that you are so unlikely to change other people's behaviour. Regardless of how sensible you think you are. Protect yourself first.
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  #17696  
Old 09.12.2020, 11:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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(Apologies if you are customer facing - but the context of your post indicates this is not the case.)
Yes, I am customer facing and yes, my team is customer facing and yes you're wrong (again) and thanks for calling me a "shit boss" without even knowing me.
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  #17697  
Old 09.12.2020, 11:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just reposting this as it happened while a certain member was on his "holiday". Mr Clifton - care to comment?
Yes, they should run the test again. Germany has now had Covid cases at 20,000 per day for a month now with little sign of any reduction, in spite of lockdown measures and a general mask mandate.

Look at the limitations of the study, a statistical study with focus on the city of Jena over a very short period of time in April. The peak of Covid infection in Germany had already passed by then. Correlation does not imply causation, which is why RCT studies are the best method for testing efficacy.

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I find it totally unfair that Romandie cantons were very proactive at the beginning of the second wave, closing restaurants and cultural places, successfully reducing contamination; and now that we are ready to open again, we have to pay the price for the Swiss Germans who couldn’t make such decisions without being forced by the Confederation.
The German speaking cantons could also argue it's not their fault that Romandie cantons let things get so out of control in the first place. Swings and roundabouts.
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  #17698  
Old 09.12.2020, 11:34
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Re: Coronavirus

Russian vaccine: no alcohol for 42 days. Very smart, there's now an excuse for low/zero effectiness in the real world

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Deputy Prime Minister Tatiana Golikova said on Friday that the vaccinated should avoid public places and reduce their intake of medicine and alcohol, which could suppress the immune system, within the first 42 days after the first jab.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN28F09O
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Old 09.12.2020, 11:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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does anyone know if 5 persons is including kids? tried looking at 20min article below and could not find anything
No separate mention but I think pretty clear it does. BTW from 24th to 26th December up to 10 people are allowed

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This is how social distancing was been met in one of the SKI resorts and has met with lot of criticism
Quite rightly criticised for that and if they don't change I'm pretty sure they will be closed down. I was at my local place a couple of weeks ago and there I saw them preparing a proper queueing system, something they never had before (and the capacity at that particular lift means there's never serious queues anyway).
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Old 09.12.2020, 11:38
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Re: Coronavirus

Oh, god. Please not another vicious cycle of arguments about masks.... This thread was just beginning to feel productive, informative and non-redundant.
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