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  #17881  
Old 13.12.2020, 11:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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What will happen however is cross-Cantonal "tourism" to use other Canton's reduced measures. With the effect that the spreading goes back up even faster.
We in VD have already had this for many weeks already. Yet VD figures also declined. GE and France with stricter measures drove all of them to VD. But to be fair there are many places people habitually do their business across these lines before due to closer proximity, Celigny being the ultimate example of this.
But it was exacerbated during Nov. in particular. Differential cantonal measures, even country ones (France), seem to have worked from this experiment.
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  #17882  
Old 13.12.2020, 11:23
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Re: Coronavirus

It’s Sunday. Where can I buy some milk?
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  #17883  
Old 13.12.2020, 11:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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It’s Sunday. Where can I buy some milk?
In Geneva
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  #17884  
Old 13.12.2020, 11:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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291,557 US troops died in the Second World War.

305,082 died in the USA from while being positive for Covid-19...
FTFY.

Tom
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  #17885  
Old 13.12.2020, 11:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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C’mon! Swiss Germans coming to Romandie? Not possible.
They come here in droves, it's only fair that you get your share of the refugees tourists!

Tom
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  #17886  
Old 13.12.2020, 11:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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291,557 US troops died in the Second World War.

305,082 died in the USA from Covid-19...
It's not as if without COVID those 305,082 would ALL still be alive, how many old people a year died during WW2, population has more than doubled since?
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:11
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Re: Coronavirus

NZZ today, interview with three chief physicians of ZH hospitals. Their assessment on how stretched the hospitals are is quite concerning: People with serious non-Covid issues have difficulties being admitted, increasing infection of non-Covid patients in the hospitals (and deaths from it), sustainable level of cases in their view is 700 per day.

https://nzzas.nzz.ch/schweiz/drei-ch...ist-ld.1591823

Drei Chefärzte klagen an: «Die Politik hat nicht verstanden, wie dramatisch die Situation ist»

Man muss sich das so vorstellen: Im Kanton Zürich fällt in diesem Herbst jeden Monat ein Verkehrsflugzeug mit 200 Senioren an Bord vom Himmel. 200 Tote – und im nächsten Monat passiert das wieder, und dann wieder», sagt Urs Karrer.

«Was mich immer mehr deprimiert, ist, wie wir das als Gesellschaft einfach hinnehmen», sagt Huldrych Günthard.

Und Gerhard Eich erzählt: «Bei uns wurde kürzlich ein Patient operiert mit einem Riss in der Hauptschlagader, Aortadissektion. Das ist einer der chirurgischen Top-Notfälle, man darf überhaupt keine Zeit verlieren. Aber dieser Patient wurde zuvor offenbar wegen Platzmangel in mehreren Spitälern abgewiesen. Unglaublich.»

Die drei Männer sitzen – mit Masken – am grossen Tisch in einem Büro der «NZZ am Sonntag». Sie haben die Redaktion diese Woche per E-Mail kontaktiert. «Wie Sie ja auch gesehen haben, haben wir in der Schweiz Sars-CoV-2 überhaupt nicht im Griff», schrieben sie, beispielsweise am Universitätsspital Zürich habe man diese Woche einen neuen Rekord an Corona-Patienten gezählt. «Und die Fallzahlen steigen fröhlich weiter. Wir Infektiologen sind äusserst besorgt.»

Es sind erfahrene Mediziner, alle in leitender Position in den drei grössten Spitälern im Kanton Zürich: Urs Karrer, Chefarzt Infektiologie am Kantonsspital Winterthur. Professor Huldrych Günthard, stellvertretender Direktor an der Klinik für Infektionskrankheiten am Unispital Zürich. Und Gerhard Eich, Chef-Infektiologe am Triemli. Drei Spezialisten im Kampf gegen ansteckende Krankheiten mit zusammengenommen 80 Jahren Berufserfahrung.

Sie sind extremen Druck gewöhnt. Sie sind geübt im Umgang mit dem Sterben, dem Tod. Und ihre Rolle erfordert es, auch in hektischen Situationen Ruhe auszustrahlen. Doch jetzt sind sie gekommen, um die Öffentlichkeit aufzurütteln und die Politik an ihre Verantwortung zu erinnern – den zögerlichen Bundesrat, Parteien, die sich gegen wirksame Schutzmassnahmen stellen, besonders aber den Zürcher Regierungsrat.

Dieser wird im Gespräch einmal schlicht als «dysfunktional» bezeichnet.

In ihrer Diagnose sind sich die Kaderärzte einig: «Die Politik hat noch nicht verstanden, wie dramatisch die Situation in den Spitälern ist. Das Gesundheitssystem ist jetzt schon überlastet. Seit Wochen.» Diese Aussage machen – in Varianten – alle drei.

Und die bisher getroffenen Massnahmen, auch die am Freitag neu vom Bundesrat beschlossenen Einschränkungen des öffentlichen Lebens, sind ihrer Ansicht nach nicht ausreichend: Wenn die Fallzahlen schweizweit nicht rasch unter 700 pro Tag gedrückt würden und die Quote der positiven Tests unter 5 Prozent sinke, dann kollabiere das System.

«Die Spitäler sind voll», sagt Karrer. Ein weiterer Ausbau der Kapazitäten für Covid-19-Patienten kaum mehr möglich: «Schafft man zwei zusätzliche Covid-19-Betten, muss man drei bis vier andere zumachen, weil die Pflege so intensiv ist», erklärt Eich. Dazu brauche es qualifiziertes Personal. Und das fehle.

Die Sorgen

Die drei Mediziner sind aufgewühlt. An vorderster Stelle steht die Sorge um ihre Patienten. «Wir können unseren Job nicht mehr so gut machen, wie wir das möchten», sagt Günthard vom Unispital. «Wir laufen seit Wochen einen Abgrund entlang», sagt Karrer, «der Grat ist stets leicht ansteigend, es wird immer etwas härter. Und die Leute sind müde.»

Mit fatalen Folgen. Da ist nicht nur der Patient mit dem Aortariss, für den verzweifelt ein Platz gesucht wird. Da sind auch heikle Entscheide. Etwa, wie lange ein Patient, der eine neue Herzklappe braucht, auf seine Operation warten kann, bis für ihn ein Bett auf der Intensivabteilung frei wird. «Oder ein Krebspatient, der eine grosse Operation benötigt und mehrere Wochen oder sogar Monate darauf warten muss», sagt Karrer.

Dann sprechen die drei Infektiologen ein besonders heikles Thema an, ein Tabu: Spitalinfektionen. Dass Patienten wegen einer anderen Erkrankung ins Spital kommen, sich mit Corona anstecken – und daran sterben. Das ist in den letzten Wochen in mehreren Spitälern im Kanton Zürich passiert.

Alle drei Ärzte kennen das Problem. «Wir haben im Spital zu viel Virus und eine hohe Konzentration an vulnerablen Menschen», sagt Karrer, «eine gefährliche Mischung.» Zwar werden alle Patienten beim Spitaleintritt auf Covid-19 getestet. «Hat sich aber ein neuer Patient erst am Tag zuvor angesteckt, ist der Test negativ. Zeigt der Patient nach vier Tagen Symptome und liegt in einem Viererzimmer, dann haben wir ein Problem», sagt Günthard.

So breitet sich das Virus in der Klinik aus. Und auch, weil das Personal am Anschlag läuft: Nach einer Schicht über zehn Stunden lässt die Konzentration nach, Fehler passieren. Man vergisst, die Maske oder Handschuhe zu wechseln.

Auch weil die Arbeitslast so hoch ist: Wenn Mitarbeitende selber angesteckt werden, müssen andere einspringen. Teams werden auseinandergerissen, Personal von einem Ort zum anderen versetzt. Aber eine Pflegende von der Augenheilkunde könne man nicht einfach an das Bett eines Sterbenden setzen. «Unser Personal dreht im Hamsterrad.» Eich befürchtet Reaktionen: «Schon im Frühling gab es eine Kündigungswelle.»

Die Wut

Das führt von den Sorgen der Mediziner zu ihrer Wut. Der Wut darüber, mit welchem Fatalismus auf das hohe Alter der meisten Covid-19-Toten hingewiesen werde. Als wären Betagte weniger wert. «Dabei sind viele von ihnen im Moment der Erkrankung noch rüstig», sagt Günthard, «sie hätten noch ein paar gute Jahre haben können.»

Der Wut auch über Politiker, die sich die Verantwortung zuschieben. «Mit einem Pingpong zwischen dem Bund und den Kantonen», wie es Karrer sagt, «mit dem wir im Oktober drei Wochen verloren haben. Drei Wochen mit einer Verdoppelung der Fallzahlen jede Woche, was zu einer Verzehnfachung der Fälle geführt hat. Das sitzt uns immer noch im Genick.»

Die Spitäler hätten sich gut auf die zweite Welle vorbereitet, sind sich die Klinikchefs einig. Doch die Politik habe es verpasst, die gute Ausgangslage im Sommer zu nutzen, dafür zu sorgen, dass die Zahl über die Ausbreitung des Virus, der sogenannte R-Wert, tief bleibe, unter eins. Das wäre mit einfachen Massnahmen zu bewerkstelligen gewesen, sagt Gerhard Eich. «Vor allem mit einer klaren Kommunikation, dass die Leute wissen, was passiert, wenn die Zahlen wieder steigen – dass dann ihre Beiz zugeht, zum Beispiel.»

Der Ärger der Zürcher Klinikchefs richtet sich in erster Linie gegen die eigene Kantonsregierung. Zwar sei die Zusammenarbeit mit der Kantonsärztin gut. Bekannt ist auch, dass Gesundheitsdirektorin Natalie Rickli sich für stärkere Schutzmassnahmen eingesetzt habe. Vergeblich.

Denn beim Kanton geben andere den Ton an. Der Krisenstab etwa wird vom Kommandanten der Kantonspolizei geleitet. «Ich glaube nicht, dass Polizisten Waffen haben, die Viren besonders gut bekämpfen», kommentiert Karrer sarkastisch. Und Günthard fügt an, die Massnahmen der Zürcher Regierung seien «homöopathischer Natur», sie hätten die Ausbreitung des Virus bestenfalls auf der zweiten Stelle hinter dem Komma beeinflusst.

Die Hoffnung

So ist man denn froh um das Eingreifen des Bundesrats. Das habe die Lage im November etwas stabilisiert. Doch genügend seien auch die neusten, am Freitag beschlossenen Massnahmen bei weitem nicht: «Gondelbahnen mit 80 statt 120 Passagieren sind immer noch sehr voll, Nase an Nase sozusagen. Das ist epidemiologisch mindestens so heikel wie die Grossveranstaltungen Anfang Oktober», sagt Karrer – selber ein ehemaliger, ambitionierter Skirennfahrer.

Die Infektiologen haben eine eigene Liste von Massnahmen erstellt, die sie als zielführend erachten: «Untersagen von allen sozialen Aktivitäten ausserhalb der Familie», heisst es da. Restaurants und Freizeiteinrichtungen schliessen, maximal 5 Personen aus zwei Haushalten bei privaten Besuchen, an Weihnachten und Neujahr ausnahmsweise 10 Personen. Beschränkungen der Kundenzahl in Läden. Das ist nur eine Auswahl der Forderungen. Damit, so hoffen sie, liesse sich die Pandemie eingrenzen und im Frühling zu einer gewissen Normalität zurückkehren.

Doch was sagen die Mediziner zu den Sorgen der Unternehmer, den Demonstrationen der Wirte in den letzten Tagen? Zunächst, dass das Gesundheitspersonal auch Grund hätte, zu demonstrieren, ihm aber einfach die Zeit fehle: «Wir sind am Arbeiten», sagt Günthard. «Wir sehen, dass wirtschaftliche Existenzen zugrunde gehen», räumt Karrer ein, «das tut weh. Doch Unternehmen können sich erholen, neu aufgebaut werden. Aber die Toten holen wir nicht zurück.»
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  #17888  
Old 13.12.2020, 12:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's not as if without COVID those 305,082 would ALL still be alive, how many old people a year died during WW2, population has more than doubled since?
That is why I suppose excess mortality is the correct measure. Wasn't there a CDC study here recently that put excess mortality at 260 - 360k in 2020?

Last edited by komsomolez; 13.12.2020 at 15:06.
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  #17889  
Old 13.12.2020, 12:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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That is why I suppose excess mortality is the correct measure. Wasn't there a CSC study here recently that put excess mortality at 260 - 360k in 2020?
Not really, because many people will have died as a result of lockdown, rather than from COVID
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  #17890  
Old 13.12.2020, 12:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Not really, because many people will have died as a result of lockdown, rather than from COVID
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:19
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Re: Coronavirus

I ran the NZZ story through deepl, if you’d like to read a translation.

NZZ today, interview with three chief physicians of ZH hospitals. Their assessment on how stretched the hospitals are is quite concerning: People with serious non-Covid issues have difficulties being admitted, increasing infection of non-Covid in the hospitals (and deaths from it), sustainable level of cases in their view is 700 per day.

https://nzzas.nzz.ch/schweiz/drei-ch...ist-ld.1591823

Three chief physicians accuse: "The politicians have not understood how dramatic the situation is".

You have to imagine it like this: In the canton of Zurich, a commercial airliner with 200 senior citizens on board falls out of the sky every month this fall. 200 dead - and next month it happens again, and then again," says Urs Karrer.

"What depresses me more and more is how we as a society simply accept this," says Huldrych Günthard.

And Gerhard Eich explains: "We recently operated on a patient with a tear in the aorta, aortic dissection. This is one of the top surgical emergencies, there is no time to lose at all. But this patient was previously rejected by several hospitals, apparently due to lack of space. Unbelievable."

The three men are sitting - wearing masks - at the big table in an office of the "NZZ am Sonntag". They have contacted the editorial office this week by e-mail. "As you have also seen, we don't have Sars-CoV-2 at all in Switzerland," they wrote. For example, at the University Hospital in Zurich they have counted a new record number of corona patients this week. "And the number of cases continues to rise cheerfully. We infectiologists are extremely concerned.

They are experienced physicians, all of them in leading positions in the three largest hospitals in the canton of Zurich: Urs Karrer, Chief Physician Infectiology at the Cantonal Hospital Winterthur. Professor Huldrych Günthard, Deputy Director of the Clinic for Infectious Diseases at the University Hospital of Zurich. And Gerhard Eich, chief infectiologist at Triemli. Three specialists in the fight against infectious diseases with a combined professional experience of 80 years.

They are used to extreme pressure. They are trained in dealing with dying, with death. And their role requires them to radiate calm even in hectic situations. But now they have come to shake up the public and remind politicians of their responsibility - the reluctant Federal Council, parties opposed to effective protective measures, but especially the Zurich government council.

In conversation, the latter is once simply referred to as "dysfunctional".

In their diagnosis, the cadre doctors agree: "Politicians have not yet understood how dramatic the situation in the hospitals is. The healthcare system is already overloaded. For weeks." All three make this statement - in variations.

And the measures taken so far, including the new restrictions on public life passed by the Federal Council on Friday, are not sufficient in their view: if the number of cases throughout Switzerland were not rapidly reduced to below 700 per day and the rate of positive tests fell below 5 percent, the system would collapse.

"The hospitals are full," says Karrer. Further expansion of capacity for Covid-19 patients is hardly possible: "If you create two additional Covid-19 beds, you have to close three or four others because the care is so intensive," explains Eich. This requires qualified personnel. And that is what is missing.

The worries

The three physicians are agitated. Their first priority is the care of their patients. "We can no longer do our job as well as we would like to," says Günthard from the university hospital. "We've been walking along a precipice for weeks," says Karrer, "the ridge is always slightly rising, it's getting harder and harder. And the people are tired."

With fatal consequences. There is not only the patient with the aortic tear, for whom a place is desperately sought. There are also delicate decisions. For example, how long a patient who needs a new heart valve can wait for his operation until a bed is available for him in the intensive care unit. "Or a cancer patient who needs a major operation and has to wait several weeks or even months for it," says Karrer.

Then the three infectiologists address a particularly sensitive topic, a taboo: hospital infections. The fact that patients come to hospital because of another illness, get infected with corona - and die from it. This has happened in recent weeks in several hospitals in the canton of Zurich.

All three doctors know the problem. "We have too much virus in the hospital and a high concentration of vulnerable people," says Karrer, "a dangerous mixture. Although all patients are tested for Covid-19 when they enter the hospital. "But if a new patient is infected the day before, the test is negative. If the patient shows symptoms after four days and is lying in a room with four people, then we have a problem," says Günthard.

This is how the virus spreads in the clinic. And also because the staff is running at full speed: After a ten-hour shift, their concentration drops and mistakes are made. People forget to change masks or gloves.

And also because the workload is so heavy: if employees are infected themselves, others have to step in. Teams are torn apart, staff are moved from one place to another. But a nurse from the ophthalmology department cannot simply be seated at the bed of a dying person. "Our staff spins the hamster wheel." Eich fears reactions: "Already in spring there was a wave of layoffs.

The rage

This leads from the worries of the medical profession to their anger. The rage about the fatalism with which the high age of most of the Covid-19 dead is pointed out. As if the elderly were worth less. "Yet many of them are still sprightly at the moment of illness," says Günthard, "they could have had a few good years.

The anger also about politicians who shift the responsibility on themselves. "With a ping-pong between the federal government and the cantons," as Karrer puts it, "with which we lost three weeks in October. Three weeks with a doubling of the number of cases every week, which has led to a tenfold increase in the number of cases. It's still breathing down our necks."

The hospitals have prepared well for the second wave, the hospital directors agree. But the politicians have failed to take advantage of the good starting position in the summer to ensure that the number about the spread of the virus, the so-called R-value, remains low, below one. This could have been achieved with simple measures, says Gerhard Eich. "Above all, clear communication that people know what will happen when the numbers rise again - that their pickling plant will be closed, for example.

The annoyance of the Zurich hospital directors is primarily directed against their own cantonal government. The cooperation with the cantonal physician is good. It is also well known that Health Director Natalie Rickli has advocated stronger protective measures. In vain.

Because others set the tone for the canton. The crisis team, for example, is headed by the commander of the cantonal police force. "I don't believe that police officers have weapons that fight viruses particularly well," comments Karrer sarcastically. And Günthard adds that the measures taken by the Zurich government are "homeopathic in nature" and have at best influenced the spread of the virus in the second place behind the decimal point.

The hope

So one is glad about the intervention of the Bundesrat. That stabilized the situation somewhat in November. But the latest measures decided on Friday are not enough: "Gondola lifts with 80 instead of 120 passengers are still very full, nose to nose, so to speak. This is epidemiologically at least as delicate as the major events at the beginning of October," says Karrer - himself a former, ambitious ski racer.

The infectiologists have drawn up their own list of measures that they consider to be effective: "Prohibition of all social activities outside the family," they say. Restaurants and recreational facilities will close, a maximum of 5 people from two households during private visits, and exceptionally 10 people during Christmas and New Year. Restrictions on the number of customers in stores. This is only a selection of the demands. This, they hope, will help to limit the pandemic and return to some normality in spring.

But what do the doctors say about the concerns of the entrepreneurs, the demonstrations of the landlords in the last days? First of all, that the health personnel also had reason to demonstrate, but simply lacked the time: "We are working," says Günthard. "We see that economic livelihoods are being destroyed," admits Karrer, "that hurts. But companies can recover and be rebuilt. But we do not bring back the dead.
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:32
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Re: Coronavirus

I agree with everything but the closure of stores as of 7 pm and on Sundays. That measure seems counterproductive as it causes more overcrowding than less.
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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I agree with everything but the closure of stores as of 7 pm and on Sundays. That measure seems counterproductive as it causes more overcrowding than less.
And you are out of milk.
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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We in VD have already had this for many weeks already. Yet VD figures also declined. GE and France with stricter measures drove all of them to VD. But to be fair there are many places people habitually do their business across these lines before due to closer proximity, Celigny being the ultimate example of this.
But it was exacerbated during Nov. in particular. Differential cantonal measures, even country ones (France), seem to have worked from this experiment.
I’m blaming V_. If he hadn’t gone all the way from Lausanne to Erlach (in canton Bern) for dinner a couple of weeks ago the Bernese wouldn’t have such high numbers today.
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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It’s Sunday. Where can I buy some milk?
Come to any of the romande cantons here, they are open. Apparently if they are on the good list, they also get an exemption for opening on Sundays. The usual places that have the authority to open on Sundays... Bakeries, gas stations, garden centers/flower stores, etc.
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:43
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I’m blaming V_. If he hadn’t gone all the way from Lausanne to Erlach (in canton Bern) for dinner a couple of weeks ago the Bernese wouldn’t have such high numbers today.
To be fair, I thought there was quite an exodus of EF members from the romandie going to BE for coffee, gastronomy, and the like.
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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It’s Sunday. Where can I buy some milk?
Its the land of cows, be creative
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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To be fair, I thought there was quite an exodus of EF members from the romandie going to BE for coffee, gastronomy, and the like.
That’s true.
I am guilty of that myself but in fairness the nearest coffee shop to where I live is actually in canton Bern and I went there even before they closed them here. I wouldn’t have driven across two cantons to go there.

I seriously doubt that the cross cantonal/coronagraben trips are really going to make that much difference overall.
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Old 13.12.2020, 12:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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It’s Sunday. Where can I buy some milk?
don't you have a automatic carousel, with milk, cream, fondue, raclette, etc, in your village- how uncivilised
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Old 13.12.2020, 13:03
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I’m blaming V_. If he hadn’t gone all the way from Lausanne to Erlach (in canton Bern) for dinner a couple of weeks ago the Bernese wouldn’t have such high numbers today.
Well for my big brother's big birthday, we resisted going to Lake Biel for a meal, as planned. Not because of Covid, but because of the fog It was a winter wonderland up here, and thick fog down below.

Filet mignon aux morilles, mash potatoe and veggies and homemade dark chocolate tart. Mauler for apéro and the best of Salquenen for dinner.
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