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  #18241  
Old 18.12.2020, 20:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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The only lockdowns that work are ones where people are virtually welded into their homes. Everything else has an immaterial effect on Covid outcomes. Seems to me there are only two options, putting people under house arrest until the vulnerable are vaccinated, or just accepting that we are in the midst of a pandemic and we have to carry on with life until the vulnerable are vaccinated.
I think there are more than just two options, including the option of putting enough restrictions in place that it results in some degree of control over the spread of the virus ("flattening the curve"), bringing the R down and preventing all ICU beds from being taken up / hospitals from becoming too overcrowded. So a hardcore lockdown most likely is the best strategy to cause a sudden and dramatic drop in the #'s, other restrictions such as closing schools and restaurants, work-from-home, etc. can at least help keep the spread of the virus under some degree of control compared to having no restrictions at all.
-----

It will be interesting to see what Germany's numbers do over the next few weeks, now that they've gone into "hard lockdown." If the numbers do dramatically decrease, I won't be at all surprised if Switzerland follows their lead, after the holidays.
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  #18242  
Old 18.12.2020, 20:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think there are more than just two options, including the option of putting enough restrictions in place that it results in some degree of control over the spread of the virus ("flattening the curve"), bringing the R down and preventing all ICU beds from being taken up / hospitals from becoming too overcrowded. So a hardcore lockdown most likely is the best strategy to cause a sudden and dramatic drop in the #'s, other restrictions such as closing schools and restaurants, work-from-home, etc. can at least help keep the spread of the virus under some degree of control compared to having no restrictions at all.
Exactly. Why would one not do something between the extremes?

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It will be interesting to see what Germany's numbers do over the next few weeks, now that they've gone into "hard lockdown." If the numbers do dramatically decrease, I won't be at all surprised if Switzerland follows their lead, after the holidays.
Let's see. I think the Swiss would prefer exactly not to follow Germany here. And it will be more about the Swiss numbers than the German ones.
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  #18243  
Old 18.12.2020, 20:18
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Re: Coronavirus

Most of ppl are following the chaos logic: worse is better... until we have all hospitals collapsed and they will blame on the cantons and/or Bern....
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  #18244  
Old 18.12.2020, 20:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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Let's see. I think the Swiss would prefer exactly not to follow Germany here. And it will be more about the Swiss numbers than the German ones.
True. I think the Swiss gov't has made it quite clear that they do NOT want to go into another lockdown. But I think what will determine whether or not we do is what the #'s are showing after the holidays. I know that they're predicting a sharp rise in the #'s due to people getting together and traveling over Xmas break. I'm not sure what it's going to take, exactly, for the Swiss authorities to implement another lockdown -- at what point, exactly, they would be willing to do that. Maybe when there's only one ICU bed available in all of Switzerland.
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  #18245  
Old 18.12.2020, 20:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm of the opinion that we're in a pandemic and have to accept that fact and get carry on with life as much as we can. Someone posted a link to a BBC article on Switzerland earlier, and there was a quote in there that struck me where a Swiss doctor said, "we have forgotten how to die".
I don't know what you are implying with this quote, but I am sure I don't like it.

Last edited by komsomolez; 18.12.2020 at 20:43.
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  #18246  
Old 18.12.2020, 21:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't know what you are implying with this quote, but I am sure I don't like it.
I guess Tony is referring to the following article in which a Swiss doctor had, apparently, basically suggested that we allow the very elderly to suffocate to death rather than giving them ventilators:

Coronavirus: Swiss count cost of surge in deaths
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55350118

"One Swiss doctor told me that "we have forgotten how to die", and argued that offering mechanical ventilation to a very elderly person was inhumane, and unlikely to save their life.

Such comments are no comfort to families who have lost relatives to Covid, or to intensive care staff currently doing 12-hour shifts and facing Christmas without a single day off."


I wonder if that doctor would feel the same way if it was his mother or father in an ICU bed and who desperately wanted to breathe rather than to suffocate to death. There are plenty of cases where elderly people have survived COVID after being on a ventilator.
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  #18247  
Old 18.12.2020, 21:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder if that doctor would feel the same way if it was his mother-in-law
Fixed that for you
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  #18248  
Old 18.12.2020, 21:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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That's not the right question for me to answer. I'm of the opinion that we're in a pandemic and have to accept that fact and get carry on with life as much as we can. Someone posted a link to a BBC article on Switzerland earlier, and there was a quote in there that struck me where a Swiss doctor said, "we have forgotten how to die".

This is my opinion and the complete opposite to many who believe a single coronavirus death is one too many. I think your question is more relevant to these types of people, whereby whatever lockdown measures are introduced it will still be insufficient to satisfy them.

We know now that there is no correlation between severity of lockdown measures and the eventual death rate, so the question has to be asked, what's the point?
Why do you write "We know now" when we do not?
That is simply your opinion with a poor attempt to support it by writing "we" without offering any supporting evidence.
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  #18249  
Old 18.12.2020, 22:04
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Re: Coronavirus

I have left instructions through EXIT that heroic measures are not to be taken if I am seriously ill.
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  #18250  
Old 18.12.2020, 22:20
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Re: Coronavirus

The Swedish government today announced the closure of non-essential public workplaces, such as gyms, pools, and libraries. This is, of course, not a lockdown

Prime Minister Stefan Lofven also said the wearing of face masks would now be recommended on public transport during peak hours. Good for him but why not mandatory
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  #18251  
Old 18.12.2020, 23:02
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Re: Coronavirus

The scorpion needs a sting in the tail. Recommendations simply don’t work.
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  #18252  
Old 18.12.2020, 23:10
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Re: Coronavirus

The UK has vaccinated 500k people so far and will be doing 200k *a day* next week. Oxford vaccine is due to be permitted from 28 or 29 December and then they'll be doing "several million" a week from then.

Crisis should be over there by end of Feb I would have thought. Once the most vulnerable c. 10M are vaccinated deaths should be pretty rare.
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  #18253  
Old 18.12.2020, 23:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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The UK has vaccinated 500k people so far and will be doing 200k *a day* next week. Oxford vaccine is due to be permitted from 28 or 29 December and then they'll be doing "several million" a week from then.

Crisis should be over there by end of Feb I would have thought. Once the most vulnerable c. 10M are vaccinated deaths should be pretty rare.
Quite surprised the U.K. has not approved the Moderna vaccine yet. US wet behind U.K. on Pfizer but ahead with Moderna.
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  #18254  
Old 18.12.2020, 23:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Which is ok if they are royalty speaking on political matters!
Definitely. They're quite a bit less asinine though than Megan and Harry with their call for people to vote.
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  #18255  
Old 18.12.2020, 23:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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Quite surprised the U.K. has not approved the Moderna vaccine yet. US wet behind U.K. on Pfizer but ahead with Moderna.
Probably because the uk doesn't have much (any?) moderna stockpiled while it has loads of AZ and the government have asked that the AZ product review is prioritised.
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  #18256  
Old 19.12.2020, 09:17
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Re: Coronavirus

I see one or two UK newspapers are reporting that UK nationals wont be allowed into CH after 1st January for tourism.

What rules apply to UK citizens from 1 January 2021?

"From 1 January 2021, UK citizens who have not already acquired rights under the Agreement on Free Movement of Persons (AFMP) will no longer be treated in the same way as people who have such rights.

Only those UK citizens who have acquired rights of residence in Switzerland or rights as cross-border commuters under the AFMP by 31 December 2020 continue to have rights of free movement after 1 January 2021.

Proof that rights have been acquired under the AFMP is provided by holding a residence or cross-border commuter permit. Persons with acquired rights who do not hold a residence or cross-border commuter permit can prove their status by providing other suitable documents, such as an employment contract or lease concluded before 31 December 2020, confirmation that an application has been made to a commune of residence in Switzerland or confirmation that an application has been made for a residence permit.

Service providers from the UK can continue to use the online notification procedure in order to provide services in Switzerland for up to 90 days in any calendar year. You will find further information in the Brexit FAQs for UK service providers. From 1 January 2021, they require a confirmation of notification under the online notification procedure in order to enter Switzerland.

UK citizens who have not acquired rights under the AFMP are regarded as third country citizens when entering Switzerland and no longer have rights of free movement. This means, for example, that UK citizens are no longer allowed to enter Switzerland from the UK as tourists. See ‘Who is not allowed to enter Switzerland?’ under ‘Entering Switzerland’." Federal Council
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  #18257  
Old 19.12.2020, 09:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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I see one or two UK newspapers are reporting that UK nationals wont be allowed into CH after 1st January for tourism.

What rules apply to UK citizens from 1 January 2021?

"From 1 January 2021, UK citizens who have not already acquired rights under the Agreement on Free Movement of Persons (AFMP) will no longer be treated in the same way as people who have such rights.

Only those UK citizens who have acquired rights of residence in Switzerland or rights as cross-border commuters under the AFMP by 31 December 2020 continue to have rights of free movement after 1 January 2021.

Proof that rights have been acquired under the AFMP is provided by holding a residence or cross-border commuter permit. Persons with acquired rights who do not hold a residence or cross-border commuter permit can prove their status by providing other suitable documents, such as an employment contract or lease concluded before 31 December 2020, confirmation that an application has been made to a commune of residence in Switzerland or confirmation that an application has been made for a residence permit.

Service providers from the UK can continue to use the online notification procedure in order to provide services in Switzerland for up to 90 days in any calendar year. You will find further information in the Brexit FAQs for UK service providers. From 1 January 2021, they require a confirmation of notification under the online notification procedure in order to enter Switzerland.

UK citizens who have not acquired rights under the AFMP are regarded as third country citizens when entering Switzerland and no longer have rights of free movement. This means, for example, that UK citizens are no longer allowed to enter Switzerland from the UK as tourists. See ‘Who is not allowed to enter Switzerland?’ under ‘Entering Switzerland’." Federal Council
That is pretty big news.

PS: Please always provide a link...
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  #18258  
Old 19.12.2020, 09:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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I’m at the Zurich airport and for the first time I believe that we should go into lockdown again...
80% of passengers are not wearing the masks correctly (some aren’t even wearing) and no one is respecting the min. distance...

Police ? I’m here since 10:30 and I didn’t see them passing or nearby...

Come on....
might we visited different Zurich airports. in mine 100% was wear masks
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  #18259  
Old 19.12.2020, 10:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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might we visited different Zurich airports. in mine 100% was wear masks
Was there on wednesday, everyone wearing a mask (and correctly), only time I have seen people without a mask was in the Swiss lounge when they were sitting and eating/drinking.
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  #18260  
Old 19.12.2020, 10:24
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Re: Coronavirus

So Aargau closes all shops other than food. These guys are funny. Missed that yesterday.
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