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  #41  
Old 29.05.2020, 14:44
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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My parents do that joke with arthritis It sucks, but it means you had a long life.
Yeah, if you look at it from that angle.
From an other angle it just means, there is no need to worry about some things as they may never happen to you
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  #42  
Old 29.05.2020, 16:19
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

Reading people talk about things they don't understand as being "dangerous" (yes, that's you Omtatsat as well) is something I should write as "First world problem". I'm sure they don't want to listen to facts, but here are some for those who truly wonder if there's anything behind the claims:
- 5G (just as 4G and 3G) uses radio waves to transmit information. Yes, radio, just like the AM and the FM radio, but with higher frequency
- FM radio is transmitted in the VHF part of the spectrum, between 85 MHz and 108 MHz
- 4G cellular data is transmitted between 700 MHz and 2500 MHz
- 5G is transmitted, as Th3Alchemist mentioned one page back, between 28 GHz and below the upper threshold of 300 GHz.

Higher frequency does NOT mean it's more dangerous per se, although it does carry higher energy. At the same time, higher frequency also means smaller wavelength (FM radio waves measure around 1 meter, while G5 waves are measured in mm). But again as Th3Alchemist mentioned, we are constantly surrounded by visible light, which has a frequency of 3000 GHz up to 30'000 GHz (way more energy than 5G signal, anywhere between 10 and 1000 times more energetic), and also constantly bathed in near ultraviolet radiation from the sun, with a frequency upwards of 3 PHz (3'000'000 GHz).

@Omtatsat: sitting your entire life next to a 5G mobile phone will provide a dose equivalent of sunbathing during 1 summer holiday wearing appropriate UV protection. Don't be an alarmist.
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  #43  
Old 29.05.2020, 16:36
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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Higher frequency does NOT mean it's more dangerous per se, although it does carry higher energy.
The funny thing is that if there was any danger - it wouldn't be from the higher transmission frequencies, as you wrote, and from the radio transmitting masts but at the other end - at your phone which you hold against your brain (ear).

The danger wouldn't be from any weird data stream but a purely simply, the heating effect on the brain by the electromagnetic energy given off when your mobile is transmitting.

However, every mobile device is tested thoroughly to ensure the SAR (specific absorption rate) is below a certain, acceptable level.

There really is nothing to worry about but for anyone with irrational fears - it's not the radio masts you should be fearing but your mobile devices so get rid of these, get rid of your wifi, and your bluetooth and get a landline and a cable TV.

HTH
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  #44  
Old 29.05.2020, 16:42
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

There's only 1 tiny claim about 5G that holds water: they use a lot more energy. Of course, they're designed to transmit a LOT more, therefore they need to suck more juice. Plus their manufacturing carbon footprint. That's the only "damage" I can think of.
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  #45  
Old 22.08.2020, 20:27
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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Reading people talk about things they don't understand as being "dangerous" (yes, that's you Omtatsat as well) is something I should write as "First world problem". I'm sure they don't want to listen to facts, but here are some for those who truly wonder if there's anything behind the claims:
- 5G (just as 4G and 3G) uses radio waves to transmit information. Yes, radio, just like the AM and the FM radio, but with higher frequency
- FM radio is transmitted in the VHF part of the spectrum, between 85 MHz and 108 MHz
- 4G cellular data is transmitted between 700 MHz and 2500 MHz
- 5G is transmitted, as Th3Alchemist mentioned one page back, between 28 GHz and below the upper threshold of 300 GHz.

Higher frequency does NOT mean it's more dangerous per se, although it does carry higher energy. At the same time, higher frequency also means smaller wavelength (FM radio waves measure around 1 meter, while G5 waves are measured in mm). But again as Th3Alchemist mentioned, we are constantly surrounded by visible light, which has a frequency of 3000 GHz up to 30'000 GHz (way more energy than 5G signal, anywhere between 10 and 1000 times more energetic), and also constantly bathed in near ultraviolet radiation from the sun, with a frequency upwards of 3 PHz (3'000'000 GHz).

@Omtatsat: sitting your entire life next to a 5G mobile phone will provide a dose equivalent of sunbathing during 1 summer holiday wearing appropriate UV protection. Don't be an alarmist.
Mobile radio frequencies for 5G awarded in Switzerland are currently only from the sub 6Ghz spectrum: https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/en/...equencies.html

More specifically in between 700 and 3800 Mhz. I think it's fair to compare the effects of 5G radiation to existing 2.4 and 5Ghz wifi networks. For anyone scared of 5G: how many wifi networks are there where you live, sleep or work already?
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  #46  
Old 22.08.2020, 23:00
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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Mobile radio frequencies for 5G awarded in Switzerland are currently only from the sub 6Ghz spectrum: https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/en/...equencies.html

More specifically in between 700 and 3800 Mhz. I think it's fair to compare the effects of 5G radiation to existing 2.4 and 5Ghz wifi networks. For anyone scared of 5G: how many wifi networks are there where you live, sleep or work already?
There's lots. And it's a small place, relatively. 6 different networks besides my own, two from the same flat (2.4 and 5GHz). But people do switch them off during the night. There are more visible during the day.

Ideally, you'd want a mesh-AP in every room and dial it down so it covers only that room. Instead, we get more and more powerful routers because people want a strong WiFi signal throughout the house....
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  #47  
Old 22.08.2020, 23:04
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

5G is a completely different to 3G/4G, it uses millimetre wave technology, you only have to spend a minute researching to find the well documented negative health effects of these waves.
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  #48  
Old 23.08.2020, 10:59
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

[QUOTE=Don Molina;3149857]I can appreciate that people like omtatsat don't really like doing actual research, and instead are contend with reading "something on the internet", so I'll keep it simple:

radiation interacts with something based on the something's size and the radiation's wave length.

Ionising radiation is clearly harmful, everybody knows that. No consumer electronics produce such radiation.

Non-ionising radiation can be split in 3 categories:
1. visible light which can blind you, because you know - visible freaking light. Think lasers in eyes
2. radiation with lower frequency (longer wavelenghts) that just goes through the body and does not interact with it.


This is just plain wrong
All wavelengths of radiation interact with our bodies to some extent (think MRI, infra-red warming, visible light, UV, X-ray etc)
Some people are convinced they are supersensitive . AFAIK- there is little hard data to support their convictions.
4G and 5G are in the in the microwave range as is the microwave oven. So it is a matter of dose and frequency. The doses from telecom are insufficient to cause heat effects. Experiments on cell cultures show that there are measurable effects on cells at non-heating levels - but meta analysis of epidemiological studies on humans show no increased cancer rates etc. and there are therapeutic devices around exploiting increases in fluid flow etc.
For me, the benefits (5g data transfer rates are much higher than 4G) out-way the risks.
I know there are studies that suggest the opposite, which you believe seems to depend on how you are disposed to technology in general.
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  #49  
Old 23.08.2020, 23:12
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

The only harms that can produce the 5G are the privacy transparency and increase in power consumption globally...as privacy: the 5G is coded differently that allows more data collection...as power consumption: 5G allows more data flows that mean more servers to be created which consume a lot of power...recent data shows that servers around the world already consume 40% of electricity globally...and that is a big CO2 footprint...countries are not ready physically to implement in full extent the 5G technology...in the UK to implement this technology is needed to build a new nuclear powerplant...
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Old 23.08.2020, 23:24
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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recent data shows that servers around the world already consume 40% of electricity globally...
That's got to be wrong. Do you have any source for that?
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  #51  
Old 24.08.2020, 16:39
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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Is it that this seems to be an "issue" in the French part and not in the German one? So far I've seen very little coverage around here, admittedly I follow mainly the free daily newspaper, but still.
No, I have also heard about some people in the German speaking part being concerned. I am not an expert on 5G, but I would be really surprised if it would do any more damage than 4G or any of the other "G"'s
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Old 24.08.2020, 18:23
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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No, I have also heard about some people in the German speaking part being concerned. I am not an expert on 5G, but I would be really surprised if it would do any more damage than 4G or any of the other "G"'s
Hey! Welcome back!
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Old 24.08.2020, 18:46
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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Hey! Welcome back!
Thank you!

It's been a very long time, but I was sooo busy and had to get some things in my life back on track.

How have things changed around here? Are Fridays still the same?
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Old 24.08.2020, 19:22
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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Thank you!

It's been a very long time, but I was sooo busy and had to get some things in my life back on track.

How have things changed around here? Are Fridays still the same?
People come, people go, and the eternal quest for brown sugar and proper bacon continues. Fridays aren't as lively as they used to be, perhaps you could start a Friday thread this week?
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Old 24.08.2020, 21:04
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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That's got to be wrong. Do you have any source for that?
You are right, the statement is wrong. They CAN use more power, but because of the way they're set-up to modulate power usage based on data transfer, they are designed to save energy (I read about this rather recently, actually, shortly after I said a few lines further up that they DO use more power...never corrected myself, rather leave the shoe in my mouth for everyone to see).
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Old 24.08.2020, 21:06
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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People come, people go, and the eternal quest for brown sugar and proper bacon continues.
We have proper bacon here, it's the UK who doesn't.

Tom
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Old 25.08.2020, 14:04
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

As honey bees are the new canaries in the coal mine, I thought I'd check it out and i found this
https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...-56948-0#Sec20
Unfortunately, I'm none the wiser.
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Old 25.08.2020, 16:47
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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Unfortunately, I'm none the wiser.
I'll summarize and "translate" to normal English without technical lingo: The paper studied only the level of absorption of the EMF waves, not the potential effects in animals. They measured and modelled bees in computers, and then used a series of different wavelengths (some currently in use, and some not used yet), and ran the computer model to determine which wavelengths would be absorbed the most inside the bees' bodies.

It's quite important to notice that it's unlikely that absorbed EMF waves in the powers measured (peak values of less than 0.2 V/m) would have an effect in living tissue. But they will continue researching the topic, to try to understand the thermal effect that the radiation may have in bees.
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Old 25.08.2020, 16:50
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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I'll summarize and "translate" to normal English without technical lingo: The paper studied only the level of absorption of the EMF waves, not the potential effects in animals. They measured and modelled bees in computers, and then used a series of different wavelengths (some currently in use, and some not used yet), and ran the computer model to determine which wavelengths would be absorbed the most inside the bees' bodies.

It's quite important to notice that it's unlikely that absorbed EMF waves in the powers measured (peak values of less than 0.2 V/m) would have an effect in living tissue. But they will continue researching the topic, to try to understand the thermal effect that the radiation may have in bees.
Ah, thank you. That is really helpful.
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Old 25.08.2020, 17:26
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Re: 5g and Swiss paranoia, or is it?

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It's quite important to notice that it's unlikely that absorbed EMF waves in the powers measured (peak values of less than 0.2 V/m) would have an effect in living tissue. But they will continue researching the topic, to try to understand the thermal effect that the radiation may have in bees.
Bees and other similar insects can easily overheat (Japanese bees will kill a predator hornet by smothering it so it overheats as Japanese bees can cope with a temperature 2 degrees higher than that of the hornet).
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