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Old 09.02.2020, 21:45
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

I've been thinking about the question of the difference that such a law will make, and tried to separate my list, from above:
  • Unpleasant, illegal, but hard to prove, and the new law alone will probably not cause this to stop
  • Eye-rolling, hissing, demonstrative shudders.
  • Being ostracised from their families, even so far as to become homeless, even as minors – except the “minor” part, that’s already not okay for any parent of any child.
  • Being excluded from former friends.
  • Having remarks called out.
  • Being approached by random strangers on the street to tell them they'd better desist (from holding hands, from being gay) or they'd be going straight to hell.
  • Being followed on the street for several blocks by someone quoting Bible verses and inviting them to church so they could be healed from the sickness.
  • Standing in hospital with the whole family gathered to welcome the new niece, and an announcement being made that the new baby should never, ever be placed in the arms of this one.
  • Being being told they ought to be ashamed of themselves sitting there in the park, holding hands when there were children around.
  • Hearing parents being asked whether they had - as opposed to this one standing right here - a "real" son or daughter.


    Clearly illegal according to the new law, and likely to be successfully charged before a Court of law, such that the perpetrator would be fined (and presumably think twice about doing the same deed again, and the case be a deterrent)
  • Being told that there is no table free at the restaurant, while visibly straight people were being admitted without a reservation.
  • Being turned away from hotels, overtly because "we don't let peverted women sleep here".
  • Being excommunicated from religious circles
  • Being being told not to renew their gym memberships here.
  • Being dismissed from a job once they'd been "outed" by someone else.
  • Being told that they'd been disregarded for the promotion because "we know you're gay, but this job needs someone responsible"
  • Being thrown off the sports team.


    Already potentially illegal through other laws, but depends on the context (for example, perhaps in self-defence is permissible). New, however: if the motivation of the perpetrator can be shown to have been that the victim is not heterosexual, then it is now a clearly illegal act.
  • Being spat on in the train.


    Already definitely illegal through other laws
  • Threats of physical violence including, for women, being threatened with so-called "corrective rape" (uggghhh!!!!)
  • Real violence.

    and finally
    Not illegal, but perhaps there will be fewer deaths as the societal shift takes place, away from discrimination
  • Suicide, because they just could no longer take the pressure of the discrimination.

I'm not sure of my above classification... these are just initial musings, trying to think through the consequences of the new law.

Certainly my friend who was passed over for promotion and explicitly told that is was because his being gay necessarily meant that he was not responsible enough for the next level at work, had no claim whatsoever. Had he then had this law, he'd have been able to show that this was discriminatory, such that he might have had the chance to be promoted after all, or perhaps to be compensated in some way. As it happened, he ended up being kept on a lower managerial level, which, translated over the years, added up to a significant financial loss (besides all other kinds).

Last edited by doropfiz; 10.02.2020 at 04:03.
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Old 09.02.2020, 21:48
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Cna you name one or not?
Name one of what?
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Old 09.02.2020, 21:49
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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I'm not sure if you're asking seriously or you're being facetious. The truth is that majorities don't get discriminated against. It's the minorities that suffer opression and discrimination. The law, I guess, attempts to protect them.
I understand what you mean and I somewhat agree with you.

I was just trying to show the person who said it was about 'equal rights, not special rights' that it's not exactly true, it is a special right as there is no equivalent afforded to traditional couples (regardless of whether it's necessary or not)
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Old 09.02.2020, 21:52
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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There is a flaw in this reasoning, though, imho. The law protecting all people assumes they can all equally potentially be discriminated against. I think intolerant remarks are frequently made against all, they shouldn't be. Period. It is inclusive and respect promoting. Ie - there is nothing abnormal about some groups, they all are protected by the same law treating respect and tolerance.

I feel that norms and veering off the norm change so fast, the law reflects it so late and selectively, only. I may be wrong but I wonder if it creates hierarchy instead of inclusion..
All peoples, groups, minorities, majorities etc etc should all of course be equally treated and equally protected by just the one standard lot of laws. But because people are people this isn't enough. It should be enough, just as rules stating there should be equal pay regardless of gender should be enough, but sadly it isn't.
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Old 09.02.2020, 21:53
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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I was just trying to show the person who said it was about 'equal rights, not special rights' that it's not exactly true, it is a special right (regardless whether it's good/necessary or not)
Perhaps it helps to see such anti-discrimination laws not as "equal" but as "equalising", in other words, as working towards doing away with or preventing or compensating for some part of what makes someone unequal in the first place.

Were all people treated fairly and equally, we would need no such laws to entrentch and enforce equal rights. No-one would need to demonstrate for such equality, and we would not need votes to bring in new laws just to keep people safe.

However, pretending that all people are treated fairly and equally is just untrue. It is to bridge the gaps between the inequalities that such "equalising" laws are put in place.

Edit: Already said, faster and more eloquently, by Rufus.
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Old 09.02.2020, 22:02
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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I'm not sure if you're asking seriously or you're being facetious. The truth is that majorities don't get discriminated against.
There's no such thing as a majority. We're all a minority in some way.

OK, I'm white, male and heterosexual. I'm also fairly wealthy. The absolutely does not mean that I've never experienced discrimination based (accurately!) on certain attributes. Cos I have.

I was going to write:
I think it is a shame that any identifiable group should need protection under law from discrimination.
(What dropfiz and rufus said).

But there's a problem with that (even though I generally think it is right, and specifically think such laws are necessary) Somewhere, society decides which groups are acceptable and which are not, and as I may have mentioned elsewhere, that is susceptible to radical change.

I guess humans are basically gits, but we're aware of it, and so create laws to try to mitigate it. But let's not a) assume our morality is the "right" one or b) rest on our laurels.
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Old 09.02.2020, 22:21
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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I understand what you mean and I somewhat agree with you.

I was just trying to show the person who said it was about 'equal rights, not special rights' that it's not exactly true, it is a special right as there is no equivalent afforded to traditional couples (regardless of whether it's necessary or not)
You see, if you call the protection a special right, it means gay people are special.
But they're equal and that right - to be equal - seems to need special protection at the moment.
Just like with skin of colour. They are not special. Their equality needs to be protected (ain't that sad - and absolutely crazy?)

You might want to argue, re colour of skin law, ALL colours are protected (including those who seem to think their's is normal, which ever one that might be) while the protection of gay people covers only them. Fair enough, you can do that. But I've yet to be slandered a hetero by anyone - I mean anyone. So I don't seem to need protection. Yet.
The day I need it, I collect signatures, have it voted on. That's how it works here.
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Old 09.02.2020, 22:21
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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There's no such thing as a majority. We're all a minority in some way.

OK, I'm white, male and heterosexual. I'm also fairly wealthy. The absolutely does not mean that I've never experienced discrimination based (accurately!) on certain attributes. Cos I have.

I was going to write:
I think it is a shame that any identifiable group should need protection under law from discrimination.
(What dropfiz and rufus said).

But there's a problem with that (even though I generally think it is right, and specifically think such laws are necessary) Somewhere, society decides which groups are acceptable and which are not, and as I may have mentioned elsewhere, that is susceptible to radical change.
I find that measure actually defining the abnormality, which is dangerous. It cements it. As doropfiz wrote just above the law is "compensating for some part that makes somebody unequal". Because they are not unequal.
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Old 09.02.2020, 22:30
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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I find that measure actually defining the abnormality, which is dangerous. It cements it. As doropfiz wrote just above the law is "compensating for some part that makes somebody unequal". Because they are not unequal.
Yes. But people cause the inequalities because we are, as NAT states, largely stupid. The idiocy that yells "different, dangerous, attack" means we need this equalizing (thank you Doropfiz) action.
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Old 09.02.2020, 22:35
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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You might want to argue, re colour of skin law, ALL colours are protected (including those who seem to think their's is normal, which ever one that might be) while the protection of gay people covers only them. Fair enough, you can do that. But I've yet to be slandered a hetero by anyone - I mean anyone. So I don't seem to need protection. Yet.
The day I need it, I collect signatures, have it voted on. That's how it works here.
actually the new law specifically protects against discrimination because of sexual orientation, and this includes heterosexualism, as also explained in the booklet.

So he's just wrong. If you get refused service at a bar open to the public because you're not gay, you can theoretically use this law against them. And this may sound like an absurd idea but I recall reading that in some country (a quick google search seems to hint that gay safaris by straight girls is a british islands issue) they have issues with hen nights ending at gay bars and making people feel uncomfortable, so I can see a gay bar wanting to refuse them service.
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Old 09.02.2020, 22:54
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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If you get refused service at a bar open to the public because you're not gay, you can theoretically use this law against them.
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I've yet to be slandered a hetero by anyone - I mean anyone. So I don't seem to need protection. Yet.
The day I need it, I collect signatures, have it voted on. That's how it works here.
I have. Not actually refused service, but certainly made to feel totally out of place and uwanted there. I went out with a gay male friend of mine, and as we were considering an outdoor table at a gay bar, one of the very camp gay men hissed at him: "Oh, no, seriously? You're not going to try to sit down here with... that thing, are you?"
Since we just wanted to have a chat, in peace, we went somewhere else.


I've been thinking about equality, and how the concept is sometimes used as an excuse to avoid taking remedial measures, and the accusation that someone (in this case gay people) are trying to get "special" rights.

A person who cannot hear is not worth any less (or more) than a person who can, on account of her hearing or lack thereof. In truth, she is not unequal in that she is just as valuable and useful and has a right to her being and her self-determination and her ways to find happiness and to progress in life. But she is definitely unequal in her ability to hear, and thereby impaired in her chance to participate fully in all aspects of life, and is, in our society, too often subject to discrimination.

Some people treat her like an idiot because she can't hear what they're saying. Sometimes she can't gain access to information that she needs, because the only way to get it is from someone at an information desk who mumbles behind a screen.

People ought to make allowances. We ought to check what she needs in order that our behaviour towards her disability doesn't get in her way. Perhaps this could be facing her directly and speaking clearly. Perhaps it would be writing things down. Some people do this very well, others don't. Some institutions and businesses take the necessary measures, others don't.

Therefore, a law which states that she has a right not to be downgraded on account of an attribute about herself that she cannot change is a force or motivation to promote people, institutions and businesses to get on with it and take those necessary measures so that she is not left out or put down on account of her deafness.

Similarly, McTAVGE is already non-discriminatory with regard to his daughter, so he himself doesn't need any law to tell him how to not harm his daughter on account of her being gay. He's doing just fine with that already!

The laws become necessary in those instances in which discrimination would come about, or, even better, to prevent it in the first place.

However, I don't think it is right when - in the name of equality - the differences, and the consequences of those differences, are no longer honestly identified, admitted, and counteracted.

It is unfair and disrespectful to pretend that deaf people are always coping just fine because people always take the necessary steps to give them the information they need. It would not be true to say that we're all equal, whether or not we use wheelchairs, because while stairs are a wonderful intervention for many people, the wheelchair users just do need ramps and wider doors and larger toilets. It's a fact.
  • Deaf people should not be excluded from information.
  • Wheelchair users should not be left outside because the only way into the building is up a flight of stairs.
  • Nor should children be subjected to the same sets of rights and duties as adults.
  • Nor should people with lots of pigment be accorded less (or more) respect than those with little.
  • Nor should those who are too old or too ill to earn their own living be subject to disrespect and poverty on account of our not being willing to perceive their needs.
  • Females, or males, should not be discriminated against just for being the gender they are, and similarly those whose gender doesn't match anyone's standard preconditioned views.
  • And people who are not heterosexuals should not be subject to exclusion and disrespect.


With each slice of honesty, of firmly facing the truth of these discriminations and exclusions, we can move forward.

It is all too easy to retreat into the philosophical stance that "all are equal", and thereby risk concluding that therefore nobody needs to bother to step in and prevent or fix the discrimination.

Last edited by doropfiz; 12.02.2020 at 00:34. Reason: typo
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Old 09.02.2020, 23:02
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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...who went through some rather horrendous experience in Geneva, homophobic abuse, even assault. I hope this one gets through.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51370820
I support diversity and inclusion so I support your daughter.
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  #73  
Old 10.02.2020, 07:42
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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But I've yet to be slandered a hetero by anyone - I mean anyone. So I don't seem to need protection.
You're not going to the right places!

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actually the new law specifically protects against discrimination because of sexual orientation, and this includes heterosexualism, as also explained in the booklet.
Given the experience of doropfiz it's actually pretty good that you could say to someone who was that rude -oy pal , that law that protects you from nasty comments about being gay; works both ways.
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Old 10.02.2020, 08:40
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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You're not going to the right places!

Given the experience of doropfiz it's actually pretty good that you could say to someone who was that rude -oy pal , that law that protects you from nasty comments about being gay; works both ways.
I have an unpleasant feeling that in the name of equality the law will have the opposite effect, people will become even more discreet and private about their orientation, instead of feeling protected. The whole campaign still singles them out.

I do not think human race are a bunch of gits as it resonated here. The opposite. People mostly dislike being put on a spot, being too visible (even for the purpose of educating others, I do not know that many volunteers). It might push them into a dissent instead of creating more space and civility.
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Old 10.02.2020, 09:43
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

I'm not sure about that. Since I was a kid in the 70s, I've observed ever more acceptance of gay people, and prejudice of all kinds is largely considered unacceptable in most circles.

Changes in the law often precede changes in public acceptance. They have an effect, simply by codifying what is considered unacceptable behaviour.
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Old 10.02.2020, 10:04
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Sorry to hear about your daughterís experience. I was of the assumption that homosexuality had become a non-issue but that may just be me being naive.
Me too, it's been a long time since anyone I know felt the need to 'come out' (tho the last one was hilarious; campest guy you could meet called everyone to a bar to announce he was gay, collective sigh and 'no shit Sherlock, who's round is it')

This thread has been an eye opener. I'm very glad the measure passed. I hope Mctavige's daughter understands the bigots are in the minority and dying out.
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Old 10.02.2020, 16:53
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

Do you know what, this is the very first time that I felt hurt by reactions in EF. And I've been through a great many EF battles.

The non-"thumbs-up" were quite clear. And the shift to other members also.
Maybe this is how EF history repeats itself.

It is the first time as well, that I have ever been referred to as "they"
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Old 10.02.2020, 17:20
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

I voted "Yes".
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Old 10.02.2020, 17:32
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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It is the first time as well, that I have ever been referred to as "they"
Mustn't mean that it is intended as the ostracising 'they'. I know people that describe themselves as 'non-binary' and would prefer to be adressed like that.
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Old 10.02.2020, 17:34
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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There is a flaw in this reasoning, though, imho. The law protecting all people assumes they can all equally potentially be discriminated against. I think intolerant remarks are frequently made against all, they shouldn't be. Period. It is inclusive and respect promoting. Ie - there is nothing abnormal about some groups, they all are protected by the same law treating respect and tolerance.

I feel that norms and veering off the norm change so fast, the law reflects it so late and selectively, only. I may be wrong but I wonder if it creates hierarchy instead of inclusion..

Maybe because the situation has become so critical it needed urgent and drastic measures?
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