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  #81  
Old 10.02.2020, 17:43
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Me too, it's been a long time since anyone I know felt the need to 'come out' (tho the last one was hilarious; campest guy you could meet called everyone to a bar to announce he was gay, collective sigh and 'no shit Sherlock, who's round is it')

This thread has been an eye opener. I'm very glad the measure passed. I hope Mctavige's daughter understands the bigots are in the minority and dying out.


They might be, but they are the ones out there who will attack, verbally or physically, innocent people who simply want to love whomever they wish. I hope this law will be followed by heavy sentencing for this kind of animals and act as a real deterrent. With my patchy understanding of the status of women generally in Switzerland, I feel there' s a long way to go.
And Zurirollt, I am really sorry if you have felt offended at any stage.
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  #82  
Old 10.02.2020, 19:30
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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actually the new law specifically protects against discrimination because of sexual orientation, and this includes heterosexualism, as also explained in the booklet.

So he's just wrong. If you get refused service at a bar open to the public because you're not gay, you can theoretically use this law against them. And this may sound like an absurd idea but I recall reading that in some country (a quick google search seems to hint that gay safaris by straight girls is a british islands issue) they have issues with hen nights ending at gay bars and making people feel uncomfortable, so I can see a gay bar wanting to refuse them service.
Rereading it, you are correct.

How it will actually be applied may be a different story, but I was wrong to suggest the law was only for homosexuals.
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  #83  
Old 10.02.2020, 19:38
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Maybe because the situation has become so critical it needed urgent and drastic measures?
Or maybe that it's just normal. Why should that even need a vote
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  #84  
Old 10.02.2020, 21:02
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Maybe because the situation has become so critical it needed urgent and drastic measures?
What was voted on is neither drastic nor urgent, and will take years to be implemented.

Tom
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Old 10.02.2020, 21:10
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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What was voted on is neither drastic nor urgent, and will take years to be implemented.

Tom
Not really as the existing law is only extended (from now religion and colour).
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Old 10.02.2020, 21:24
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

I'm feeling a bit sick from reading this thread.
It might be time that you get a life.
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  #87  
Old 10.02.2020, 21:51
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

Here, for the beauty of it, are several versions of “Everything Possible”, written by Fred Small, a lawyer turned church minister, in around 1985. That was a terrifying time during which, on top of all other kinds of discrimination, gay men were subjected to blame for the new and little understood HIV/AIDS and in some cases refused medical care.

Like McTAVGE’s rainbow bracelet, I've found that this particular song has been able to gently reach [potential] parents and grandparents who are considering which values they wish to teach their children. As one mother from a fundamentalist church put it: “I liked the melody, and the message of love, that you can be anyone and love anyone, and dream. My mother certainly never sang that to me. Only later did I realise it was also saying that homosexuality is okay, and I was shocked. But then it got me thinking, and now I’m wondering how what I’ve been teaching my children could possibly be better than teaching them love.”

This is a live performance by The Flirtations (according to YouTube from a Gay Pride festival in New York in 1991). As the lead singer says: “We’re going to sing a lullaby, and we like to imagine how different the world might be if more parents would sing lullabies like this to their children.”
https://youtu.be/uxdLdRmUqqI

Here’s the album recording, (at some points a little scratchy), posted here, as well, because the lyrics are included: "Everything Possible" by Fred Small as performed by The Flirtations on their 1990 album.
https://youtu.be/6VA8DFFNQFA

Here’s Roy Bailey’s cover, perhaps more accessible for children to learn to sing: https://youtu.be/MUBc6-keVIQ

And here with interesting juxtapositions of voice.
https://youtu.be/VHhXZrN5_Wc
Everything possible - Voces Gaudii
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  #88  
Old 10.02.2020, 21:58
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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I'm feeling a bit sick from reading this thread.
It might be time that you get a life.
Yes, I've also felt a bit sick at times, reading some of what's been written here - and elsewhere - about this vote, including conversations I've had.

Partly, I'm shocked at those who say derrogatory things, but then, I knew about them. Even more that that, I'm perplexed by those otherwise nice people who hadn't seemed to realise that there is still any discrimination going on. Or even, it sometimes seems, why discrimination is problematic.
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  #89  
Old 10.02.2020, 22:00
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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What was voted on is neither drastic nor urgent, and will take years to be implemented.
Tom
It is urgent as long as young people like McTAVGE's daughter are being threatened with "corrective rape", and others (who have less sterling dads than she does) are being chased out of their parents' homes, increasing their risk of suicide, unless someone finds and helps them in time, and tells them that they're allowed to be themselves and love whomever they will.
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  #90  
Old 10.02.2020, 22:19
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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It is urgent as long as young people like McTAVGE's daughter are being threatened with "corrective rape", and others (who have less sterling dads than she does) are being chased out of their parents' homes, increasing their risk of suicide, unless someone finds and helps them in time, and tells them that they're allowed to be themselves and love whomever they will.
Being chased out of their parents' homes is still legal. Read the law.

Which is why I see this law as not changing anything. It won't.

Tom
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Old 10.02.2020, 22:42
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Being chased out of their parents' homes is still legal. Read the law.

Which is why I see this law as not changing anything. It won't.

Tom
When being subject to negative behaviour, one can (if one has the strength) appeal for help. The potential helpers can listen with more or less attention. As society changes, and its laws, the potential helpers learn to add other items to their checklists, to be more aware and ideally more sensitive.

Decades ago general violence causing grevious bodily harm was already illegal. And yet people hadn't yet been sufficiently aware of how destructive it was to children to be subject to that, and to have no escape. Now, there are childlines. A child who calls for help reporting how he or she has been punched by their parent, has a much better chance, nowadays, than those children who, decades ago, squirmed in their classroom chairs while sitting on the whelts of their father's belt, and who, if they dared breath anything, were told that they should wash their mouths out with soap for having spoken of their parents less than respectfully.

Analogously with women's refuges and - at long last! - slowly also the growing awareness that sometimes men need a refuge from domestic violence, too.

Just a few decades ago, a teenager claiming that his/her parents had thrown them out of the house was, by default, assumed to be at fault, assumed to be cheeky, or disobedient, or doing drugs or stealing from the parents' wallets, or sinfully pregnant, etc., and in general that the child was most likely so unbearable that the parents were probably perfectly right in excluding them.

With the gradual shifts in society, however, psychologists, teachers, social workers, doctors and police officers, though by no means perfect, are learning to try to find out what the real reason is, and (at least compared to decades ago) now tend to listen more closely, for signs of sexual or physical abuse, or of pressure into a force marriage, or of possible addiction, anger issues, or mental illness of the parents. All those are factors that were previously so much less considered.

This new prohibition on discrimination on account of sexual orientation will not just magic away the problem of such abuse, hey, presto, fixed by tomorrow. Of course not. But with this new law, a gay child whose parents discriminate against them and who has heard of this law will, I believe, more easily be able to name this when it is the reason. And correspondingly, be more likely to get help.
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  #92  
Old 10.02.2020, 22:49
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

Alas, the law seems not to apply in family or other familiar situations.

Which is is why I find it useless despite having voted in favor. This bothers me.

Basically, we debated whether we should vote in favor or against a law that we found to be of questionable use.

Tom
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Old 10.02.2020, 22:50
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Being chased out of their parents' homes is still legal. Read the law.

Which is why I see this law as not changing anything. It won't.

Tom
To chase a minor out of the house is not legal or at least parents must financially support them until they finished their first education.
Actually, to take doropfit's example, should parents chase a minor out of the house claiming homosexuality as the reason, they could be sued for discrimination now!

Now that's an effect I did not think of. Education and tolerance starts within the family. As people who strongly think in "right and wrong" often also believe in law and acceptance of society, the fact that both are now protecting sexual orientation will definitely influence old fashioned parent's thinking. Forced by this law at first but over time, it will have an impact.

It might all sound a bit philosophical but actually yes, this latest group added to this law might benefit the most and influence general mindset. I like that. We will know in 10 years or so if this theory is correct.
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Old 10.02.2020, 23:13
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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To chase a minor out of the house is not legal or at least parents must financially support them until they finished their first education.
Who mentioned minors?

I know adults who still live with their parents.

Tom
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Old 10.02.2020, 23:26
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Who mentioned minors?

I know adults who still live with their parents.

Tom
Ah, well I did then. It did not cross my mind that people would whine about adults being sent on their way to get a life. Even birds push their offspring out of the nest when it's time to fly.

Yeah, law is funny, eih? You're allowed to chase your grown up child out the house but not the husband.
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Old 10.02.2020, 23:30
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Alas, the law seems not to apply in family or other familiar situations.
You are right that a child or teenager (and I was writing about minor children) may still be subject, fully legally, to disparaging remarks from homophobic or transphobic parents. And yes, this is indeed a great pity.

I wonder, however, about the border between this private world, and the public space.

The teenager whose parents throw him/her out will, sooner or later, become part of the "the system" of social workers, etc. which exists to deal with young people who've become homeless. And then, once the parents are asked to come in to the school to speak to a teacher, or to the psychologist, or the child protection agency, and if there they confirm that they are against their child's homosexuality.... well, then they'd no longer be only in private, but in part of a public service and space.

Of course, some parents may deny their child's accusation.
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Old 11.02.2020, 00:26
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

I want to thank Doropfiz, McTavage and many others who have been directly /indirectly affected by homosexual slurs, etc., for taking the time to inform us of the current situation and explaining how and why it needs to be improved.

This thread does not sadden me. In fact, it gladdens me to see that we're having a level-headed discussion on a sensitive issue without veering into a train wreck. This is how we move forward...through conversations where posters are reading, listening and reacting in a mature manner.

Bravo.
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Old 11.02.2020, 01:07
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Which is why I see this law as not changing anything. It won't.
I agree that it's unlikely to change anything except maybe make the perp think twice. It won't actually change their views. What it does do is give the person on the receiving end recourse in law. It also gives the police guidelines that they can apply to an offence in an effort to thwart a cycle of abusive behaviour.
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Old 11.02.2020, 04:37
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

Yes, a law will not change the bigotted or heardhearted.

Yet the second part of what you posted, Blueangel, does, indeed, represent a significant change. A law like this gives the population the instruments, legally. But the mere fact of the law changing, and the discussion around it, of learning the vocabulary, of reading about the first court-cases, when they happen, of interviews with people directly and indirectly affected, helps to shift society along, too, in terms of mind-set.

There are so many examples in which a societal shift was already beginning to take place, and then the law (or a lesser authority such as the local school rules, or company employee policy) actually codified it, or gave people a yardstick. And thereby empowerd more people to assert these rights for themselves or to stand up and speak out when the rights of another were being diminished.

Of course, neither the law nor the discussions about the topic change those who want the status quo, and some of those carry on trampling on others, just as if the laws had never changed. But their cohort of people who side with them, agreeing with the formerly held norm shrinks.

Other examples, from Switzerland and elswhere, are:
  • Women are allowed to vote.
  • Children have a right to education and parents a duty to send them to school.
  • Being drunk while driving is not a mitigating circumstance, but a greater guilt.
  • "Conjugal rights" are done away with and rape is not permitted within a marriage.
  • Children can be heard not hurt.
  • Fathers are allowed to participate in parenting their children, even if they do not live with the children's mother.
  • Parents may not force their minor or major children to marry someone of the parents' choice.
  • Sexual behaviour is not permitted without mutual consent.
  • Banks may not recklessly lend money, plunging naive people into unmanageable debt.
  • Minor children have a right to a relationship with both their parents, even if those parents do not live together.
  • Neither a husband nor a wife may give notice on the rental contract of the family home without the consent of the other.
  • Abortion is permitted under some circumstances.
  • Women are allowed to study at university.
  • Children may not be transported across international borders without the written consent of both parents.
  • Blacks and whites use the same entrances to shops, government offices, public transport, beaches and park benches.
  • It is not permitted for parents to beat their children.
  • Women are allowed to get a driver's licence.
  • Organ transplant is permitted.
  • It is permitted to speak one's own mother-tongue.
  • The laws of inheritance apply equally to males and females.
  • Men, too, who are subject to domestic violence, deserve protection.
  • Both men and women may attend football matches.
  • Homosexual does not equate to pedosexual.
  • Both girls and boys learn to swim.

The world is not a perfect place, and in all of the above there are people whose deliberately or inadvertently behave in way which restrict the rights of others. Some rights are restricted much more than others even realise (for example, it is still the case that in Switzerland a homosexual couple cannot get married, and that homosexuals are discriminated against with regard to fostering and adopting children).

But in many countries, in many areas of society (though admittedly not all), the very concept that people have rights, at all, is making a positive change.

Amongst many other factors, the changes in the law help to bring about the changes in society. It gets better.
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Old 11.02.2020, 09:15
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Re: In support of my gay daughter...

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Other examples, from Switzerland and elswhere, are:
  • Abortion is permitted under some circumstances.
What if prenatal screening could determine a "fetus's" future orientation?
Just imagine that for example in some countries trisomy-21 has been "eradicated" already, so the reflex is well established already.
Quite confusing consequences of some of these freedoms, aren't they?

Pacific Standard: Should we be allowed to choose the sexual orientation of our children??
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