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Old 26.03.2020, 11:08
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

Very interesting group discussion via Zoom last night, again with a Professor of Ethics from Zurich Uni- discussing the recently published guidelines on triage in Swiss hospitals, related to Covid 19. This in case of a shortage of intensive care beds and ventilators in the case of too many patients presenting in A&E. Age is just a minor part of this, in fact, by Law they cannot discriminate on age, but on other health factors like the type of pre-existing conditions linked to age, or not, and how many that cumulate risk- the prognosis re likelihood of full recovery and quality of life, the degree of dementia, if present, and also personal wish/instruction, oral or in writing via instructions to DNR, etc. (like advanced directives).

The extremes are always so easy to determine- and then there are all those cases somewhere close to the line- and it gets so so difficult. Medical staff do not have the time, in fact- to go too deeply into all sorts of criteria- for sure. Some things we discussed was should smoking be a criteria, alcoholism or drug addition, social issues, and one difficult one- having children or not, eg being responsible for the life of others. Most agreed that in the case of two people with exactly the same chances and health criteria- the one with young children should be given priority- however, I imagine some would consider this to be grossly unfair. Fascinating, ethics- and especially in such circumstances.

Last edited by Odile; 26.03.2020 at 12:56.
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  #62  
Old 26.03.2020, 12:57
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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Since the majority responses are "duh, if you don't know then you're dumb", I'll explain for you.

Older people are more likely to need ICU if they fall sick of covid-19. Let's assume death rate (above) is actually the ICU rate.
1000 infected people under 40 will take up 2 beds. (0.2%)
1000 infected people between 70 and 79 will take up 80 beds. (8%).

There's about 900 ICU beds in Switzerland. If all of the 11'000 current cases were 70-79, they'd be pretty much filled.

Ergo - older people must stay away from shops and public transport, so as to protect the rest of us from an over-stretched health service. We must keep them away from sources of infection for our own good.

I do not see any logical reason why older people who avoid going near anyone should not be permitted outside to exercise; I would have thought the risk would be negligible.

It is ageist, 65 is arbitrary. But that's the situation we find ourselves in.
65 is not arbitary . Its political
And economic!!!!
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Old 26.03.2020, 13:03
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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65 is not arbitary . Its political
And economic!!!!
English lesson. Now pay attention.

A decision can be economic, political AND arbitrary. HTH.
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Old 26.03.2020, 13:10
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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English lesson. Now pay attention.

A decision can be economic, political AND arbitrary. HTH.
Why do you think its 65. Because thats the retirement age. Obvious to any THINKING person! If it was logical it would be around 75!
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Old 26.03.2020, 13:16
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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Why do you think its 65. Because thats the retirement age. Obvious to any THINKING person! If it was logical it would be around 75!
If we had the space in the hospitals to treat all those 65-75 people who get ill from Corona we could raise the bar, unfortunately we do not have that space.
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Old 26.03.2020, 13:20
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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If we had the space in the hospitals to treat all those 65-75 people who get ill from Corona we could raise the bar, unfortunately we do not have that space.
Why not make it 64. THats obvious. The politicians only have one concern -the economy!
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Old 26.03.2020, 13:26
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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Why not make it 64. THats obvious. The politicians only have one concern -the economy!
Better make it 65+ & Omtatsat.
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Old 26.03.2020, 13:28
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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Better make it 65+ & Omtatsat.
You have not learnt. They get rid of then at less than 60. THey are much too expensive!
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  #69  
Old 26.03.2020, 13:33
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

The age categories are arbitrary, based on economics, politics, prejudice and whatever statistical model you follow. They are necessary because we have insufficient resources, and as a society, need to reduce the risk to our citizens. And to the people taking care of them.

If you turned 65 today, it was ok to go out yesterday, but not today? Seems arbitrary. But, it‘s what we have.
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Old 26.03.2020, 14:06
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

From what I understand, 65+ cannot go shopping in Ticino, but they can go for walks. Of course they should all exercise caution and keep a distance if they pass other people.
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Old 26.03.2020, 14:08
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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From what I understand, 65+ cannot go shopping in Ticino, but they can go for walks. Of course they should all exercise caution and keep a distance if they pass other people.
Yes. I always cross to the other side of the road!
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Old 26.03.2020, 14:58
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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Why do you think its 65. Because thats the retirement age. Obvious to any THINKING person! If it was logical it would be around 75!
Hey, I may be over 65, but I am not death- so stop shouting please.

As said above, they are not allowed to discriminate by age for treatment and access to A&E/ER.
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  #73  
Old 26.03.2020, 15:46
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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It is my understanding that (in Ticino) people over the age of 65 are no longer allowed to shop for groceries. As if this is not enough, they are also not allowed on the bus or train systems.
Yes. But in Ticino, most don't use public transport.

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Neither allowed to leave they're homes so as to walk outside.
No.

Tom
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Old 26.03.2020, 16:53
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

I still don't understand why some people, any people, are so keen to push up against the limits.

It is wise for all of us, irrespective of our ages, to do whatever we can to avoid becoming infected, so as not to risk becoming someone who might then go on to pass on the infection. This especially since any of us could be infected without knowing it.

The "going outdoors" part, and the "travelling" should be reserved for those who absolutely must go outdoors and who absolutely must travel. Because they need to get to the doctor (pre-arranged), or have not found any other way of shopping for food, or are working in a job that needs it, or to help someone who cannot help themselves, or who must remain indoors.

Apart from those, it seems to me that exceptions to this should be only if one can step outside one's own door and walk out into the field or forest without meeting a soul. Even then, there are the risks of transferring the infection from any shared doorhandles or benches. Although one can take care of that in one's own immediate environment, with the proper cleaning.

Whether I am 20 or 50 or 70, or whether the people I go on to meet are 20 or 50 or 70, I should be keeping clear of as many points of contact as I can. This we each do for ourselves, but we also have a responsibility to do it for others. Why would anyone make so bold as to do what we know increases the risk of infection, and thereby risk endangering others? It doesn't make sense.
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Old 26.03.2020, 17:03
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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I still don't understand why some people, any people, are so keen to push up against the limits.

It is wise for all of us, irrespective of our ages, to do whatever we can to avoid becoming infected, so as not to risk becoming someone who might then go on to pass on the infection. This especially since any of us could be infected without knowing it.

The "going outdoors" part, and the "travelling" should be reserved for those who absolutely must go outdoors and who absolutely must travel. Because they need to get to the doctor (pre-arranged), or have not found any other way of shopping for food, or are working in a job that needs it, or to help someone who cannot help themselves, or who must remain indoors.

Apart from those, it seems to me that exceptions to this should be only if one can step outside one's own door and walk out into the field or forest without meeting a soul. Even then, there are the risks of transferring the infection from any shared doorhandles or benches. Although one can take care of that in one's own immediate environment, with the proper cleaning.

Whether I am 20 or 50 or 70, or whether the people I go on to meet are 20 or 50 or 70, I should be keeping clear of as many points of contact as I can. This we each do for ourselves, but we also have a responsibility to do it for others. Why would anyone make so bold as to do what we know increases the risk of infection, and thereby risk endangering others? It doesn't make sense.
This is paranoia what you are talking about. I live in an apartment block with a shared ventilator for the bathroom. To block it up would be paranoia. And nobody would work in a hospital if they thought like you. Life is full of risks and death is a part of life!
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  #76  
Old 26.03.2020, 17:19
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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This is paranoia what you are talking about. I live in an apartment block with a shared ventilator for the bathroom. To block it up would be paranoia. And nobody would work in a hospital if they thought like you. Life is full of risks and death is a part of life!
I disagree with you. As in, now, during this pandemic.

During ordinary everyday life circumstances, when there is no huge infection striding forth around the planet, though, yes, I would agree with you.
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  #77  
Old 26.03.2020, 17:24
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

Someday you have to go on the streets after they give the all clear. And do you think then that every last virus will have magically dissappeared?Of course its paranoia. Its like people who wash their hands a thousand times a day. Its a sickness.
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Old 26.03.2020, 18:31
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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This is paranoia what you are talking about. I live in an apartment block with a shared ventilator for the bathroom. To block it up would be paranoia. And nobody would work in a hospital if they thought like you. Life is full of risks and death is a part of life!
My daughter has just started working in an old-people's home, as her normal work has temporarily shut (she is an apprentice chef).

She agrees.

Tom
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Old 26.03.2020, 19:12
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

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Apart from those, it seems to me that exceptions to this should be only if one can step outside one's own door and walk out into the field or forest without meeting side without passing within 2m of a soul.
That's my take on it.

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Even then, there are the risks of transferring the infection from any shared doorhandles or benches.
The risks are very very small.

And it's all about risk. The risk of going out and maintaining distance and nonetheless contracting the disease seems to me to be so small that not going out would be riskier for my health (physical and mental). It seems, given the rules that we're currently living under, that the government and experts agree.

The only reason to establish stronger measures would be if too many people flagrantly disregard the current ones. Or evidence emerges that suggests a strict curfew is actually required to save lives.
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Old 26.03.2020, 19:42
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Re: Sounds Like Age Discrimination

"without passing within 2m of a soul"

I have no soul!

I go downstairs to get the mail and toss the trash, I touch nothing that is not mine to get in my car and go to my garage or rustico, which nobody else also ever touches.

I see more people when I go to the store or the pharmacy.

Think that I will go fire up one of the chainsaws tomorrow, as I need to do some culling.

Tom
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