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View Poll Results: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement...
Go nowhere near far enough 12 15.79%
Don't quite go far enough 21 27.63%
Are appropriate 40 52.63%
Go a bit too far 2 2.63%
Go far too far 1 1.32%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old 30.03.2020, 14:20
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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What if there are 12 people (4 Swisscom clients, 4 Salt and 4 Sunrise)?
The providers will have to productively communicate. They will hate it.
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  #82  
Old 30.03.2020, 14:22
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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I hope the people that think Earth is overpopulated have no kids
I have none nor will I ever have any (by choice).

So I guess I'm allowed, then, to think the world is indeed desperately overpopulated. Chuff has explained why before I could - thanks for that.
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  #83  
Old 30.03.2020, 14:42
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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My wife told me she saw something on local news that Swisscom is alerting authorities via cell phone tracking whenever >5 phones are in close proximity to one another. What could go wrong?
I do hope the data is reviewed/filtered somewhat before being sent to authorities. It would be a massive waste of government resources to have to google map every cluster of phones, only to find out 99% are apartment blocks.
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  #84  
Old 30.03.2020, 15:05
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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My wife told me she saw something on local news that Swisscom is alerting authorities via cell phone tracking whenever >5 phones are in close proximity to one another. What could go wrong?
She might be referring to this article. The full piece is worth a read.

Under the arrangement, Swisscom informs federal authorities when 20 mobile phones are found within an area of 100 metres squared (100 metres by 100 metres) in public spaces. Residential areas and business premises are not analysed.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/coronav...ance-/45644704
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  #85  
Old 30.03.2020, 15:47
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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She might be referring to this article. The full piece is worth a read.

Under the arrangement, Swisscom informs federal authorities when 20 mobile phones are found within an area of 100 metres squared (100 metres by 100 metres) in public spaces. Residential areas and business premises are not analysed.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/coronav...ance-/45644704
The math is wrong.

100m2 is 10m x 10m.

100m x 100m is 10 0000 m2!

20 people in 10m x 10m is perhaps a lot, but 20 people in 100m x 100m (two soccer fields) is nothing.

Idiots.

Tom
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  #86  
Old 30.03.2020, 15:55
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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So, it's OK for some people to have kids but others not? What's the exact criteria? Could you further explain please?
Wow, what a lame attempt at controversial baiting. Use your brain and figure out the difference between and impact of having more children in a densely overpopulated country with a high birth rate, especially one that is marked by poverty... and a country that is basically the opposite.
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  #87  
Old 30.03.2020, 17:05
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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The math is wrong.

100m2 is 10m x 10m.

100m x 100m is 10 0000 m2!

20 people in 10m x 10m is perhaps a lot, but 20 people in 100m x 100m (two soccer fields) is nothing.

Idiots.

Tom
They didn't use GPS to locate the SIM's so they must have used triangulation. Or they kept it simple and took all SIM's that were, say, connected to a given triplet of antennas at a given time or during a given timeframe.

As for data protection, Swisscom says they anonymise the data, and that the government was sent anonymised and aggregated data only. The idea wasn't to get precise data but to allow an educated guess on how well the restrictions from March 15 are respected.
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  #88  
Old 30.03.2020, 17:23
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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I do wonder if there's a psychological aspect to it that in some ways helps both the wearer and anyone they come into contact with. You "feel" safer even though maybe that's not really the case. I can't fault people for wanting to feel a bit better or safer. Psychology is a powerful thing.
There certainly is. The question is if it doesn't lead to a false sense of safety and has people neglect effective measures, like washing your hands the recommended way often.

You know, just like some features of a car can entice riskier driving.
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  #89  
Old 30.03.2020, 17:40
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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Net (!) growth of world population is >1 per second. Yes, net and yes, per second. In a world that is already dangerously overpopulated. That’s the grand scheme of things.

Yes there’s an emotional component of course and no one wants to see anyone die from anything. But leaving that aside, in the big scheme of things it indeed doesn’t deserve the attention. Would anyone have given two craps if this had only been confined to Asia with the same # of deaths (or actually likely many more)? Does anyone care or create a live ticker for the 30’000+ that die from hunger every single day (and that’s many less than it used to be, mind you) or the 2’500 daily deaths from malaria?

Nope no one does because it’s not immediately “here”, so we shut it out and pretend it doesn’t exist.

Yes, again, emotionally, some of what is going on out there sort of makes sense. Rationally, objectively, set into a bigger picture and perspective - it makes much less sense.
It makes loads of sense rationally - this pandemic could potentially kill us, or our relatives, friends, coworkers, neighbors, etc. Hunger and malaria are bad but i'm not at risk and i've never personally known anyone that has died from them. Has anyone on here?

There are also known remedies for both hunger and malaria, none for corona. And neither of them require shutting down most of modern society to only maybe get under control.
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  #90  
Old 30.03.2020, 17:58
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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So, it's OK for some people to have kids but others not? What's the exact criteria?
There should be a written test, rather than just the practical.

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Anyone out there who's got three? Oh goodie, I'm covered.
Me. You're welcome.

It is incumbent upon the well educated and intelligent to have larger families than the hoi palloi. If you don't understand why, watch "Idiocracy" ... or read "The Marching Morons", by Cyril M. Kornbluth.
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  #91  
Old 30.03.2020, 19:27
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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It makes loads of sense rationally - this pandemic could potentially kill us, or our relatives, friends, coworkers, neighbors, etc. Hunger and malaria are bad but i'm not at risk and i've never personally known anyone that has died from them. Has anyone on here?

There are also known remedies for both hunger and malaria, none for corona. And neither of them require shutting down most of modern society to only maybe get under control.
There are indeed remedies, but clearly we don't care enough about either hunger or malaria to actually use them properly.

And this precisely just confirmed my point: you perceive neither hunger nor malaria to be of a certain risk to you or anyone you know, therefore have no emotional connection. You perceive - emphasis on that word - corona to be some risk to you or someone around you, hence you react emotionally.

The point of above was the "grand scheme of things", and in that grand scheme of things, this virus is not a particularly massive deal in terms of its health effect on the overwhelming majority of people, at least not at this stage. It's because it's "here" - rather than in some faraway land - and because there's no immediately obvious solution to combat it that some people react the way they do. I'm still convinced that if this had been limited to one continent that isn't (Western) Europe or North America, people would have shrugged, but not cared, even if it had, let's say, killed half a million people on the Asian continent.

And one could most certainly argue whether shutting down the world is a reasonable measure. There's no rule that would say this was required. It was mainly a reaction to something unknown and once one started, they all did the same, more or less. Whether it made any sense or not no will only be clear in retrospect.
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  #92  
Old 30.03.2020, 19:37
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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There certainly is. The question is if it doesn't lead to a false sense of safety and has people neglect effective measures, like washing your hands the recommended way often.

You know, just like some features of a car can entice riskier driving.
She didn't use the paper towel to pull the door handle on the way out.
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  #93  
Old 30.03.2020, 22:43
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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The math is wrong.

100m2 is 10m x 10m.

100m x 100m is 10 0000 m2!

20 people in 10m x 10m is perhaps a lot, but 20 people in 100m x 100m (two soccer fields) is nothing.

Idiots.

Tom
There is a difference between 100 meters square (100 * 100 m) which is the reporting criteria and 100 square meters (10 * 10 m or 5 * 20 m or 4 * 25 m)
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  #94  
Old 30.03.2020, 22:57
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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There is a difference between 100 meters square (100 * 100 m) which is the reporting criteria and 100 square meters (10 * 10 m or 5 * 20 m or 4 * 25 m)
Not in English.

Tom
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Old 30.03.2020, 23:17
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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Not in English.

Tom
https://www.mrsphysics.co.uk/blog/di...etres-squared/
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  #96  
Old 31.03.2020, 00:55
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

I liked this part:
Actually, if you just do the right/formal thing – use the words ‘square metre’ out loud and write as m2, and never, never even whisper ‘metre squared’, there is NO CONFUSION.

A formal way to .... describe things with well defined, precise, scientific language avoids the types of problem you describe.
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Old 31.03.2020, 13:07
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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And one could most certainly argue whether shutting down the world is a reasonable measure. There's no rule that would say this was required. It was mainly a reaction to something unknown and once one started, they all did the same, more or less. Whether it made any sense or not no will only be clear in retrospect.
I think it is a mix of things again, and the mix is different for different countries, demographics, etc.

A small and poor place that I am from that doesn't have people to lose (not many kids are born there plus overloaded health system would of course mean loss of people of all categories not just at risk) cannot afford the laisez-faire approach: so measures are taken early, borders shut, edu and info distributed to people with facts (yes, masks stop the virus shedding, no, we don't have enough of them so make your own or don't leave the house). There are not that many CV myths there fed by media and populistic campaigns feeding of hysterics or panic are quickly identified. Skeptics.

What bewilders me that here in CH we can approach the whole situ as in S. Korea (tech and resources wise). But. The amount of private data being harvested (temps, movements, tests) for that is probably something that people would not put up with. Plus every canton is defending their autonomy here. If S. Korea did well in flatening the curve it was because it was anticipated, coordinated, synchronized and centrally controlled.

Why are all these death stats constantly being rubbed in to people's faces, media are having a field trip. The link between panic-fear-manipulation-desire to feel in control is probably turning against the media consumers.

Watching the curve is good but not if people lose their integrity by watching the curve so much to not pay attention to anything else, caving in panic and giving power to those who will not act in the communitie's interests.
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  #98  
Old 31.03.2020, 13:30
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

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Wow, what a lame attempt at controversial baiting. Use your brain and figure out the difference between and impact of having more children in a densely overpopulated country with a high birth rate, especially one that is marked by poverty... and a country that is basically the opposite.
No, not controversial baiting. If I use my brain to figure out I would put words on other people's mouth and that is the perfect recipe for misunderstandings. Clear communication implies the receiver does not have to figure out anything because the message is explicit.

So, what "having more children" means? 1, 2, or 3 per family? What is densely overpopulated country, where's the line between populated and overpopulated? Without further elaboration, those words with lots of syllabes are just platitudes.
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Old 31.03.2020, 13:33
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

It seems that the worry that birthed this thread is happening in Hungary https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/23/...e-of-emergency
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  #100  
Old 31.03.2020, 13:35
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Re: Measures that limit one's personal freedom of movement

Heard that on BBC News last night- seriously worrying. I think this is what Johnson is aiming for, by the back door, with Cummings pushing him in that direction.
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