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  #21  
Old 30.03.2020, 20:35
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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If that was the case, why did the see it necessary to meet and agree that they all would move in lockstep.

They are both competitors and in dominant positions in their markets.

This behaviour should not be permitted. Again, I am not saying their actions are not good ones giving the circumstances, but to sit down and agree that they would all do the same thing ...

Rip-off Switzerland.
So I guess we can take it that you don't know if you are legally entitled to a refund or not....

They are coordinating their voluntary response to the situation and given the current situation it makes perfect sense. The industry in crisis and the last thing they need is a race to the bottom. The fact that you don't like it is neither here nor there.
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  #22  
Old 30.03.2020, 20:44
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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Can any one of you tell me why they had to agree on this?
bowlie are you kidding me... can you really not figure this out? It's not rocket science. It's not even high school science.

If the ski pass companies are not unified on this and one of them bows to pressure and gives a refund, that means that a precedent is set which can potentially be used against all of the others. I do not know the details of each provider, bur I am guessing they are not all financially equal and that some may be hit harder than others when it comes to giving refunds. This will the affect their ability to prepare for the next season via reduced staffing and maintenance funds, leading to potentially reduced service levels.

By all agreeing not to refund tickets, they are making it so that they are all strategically aligned and unified in the face of some of their customers demanding, but not getting, refunds. This may not win them any popularity contests, but it does protect their positions and gives them solidarity in what is an unexpected and exceptional situation, a pandemic that has completely shut down all ski resorts.

I really don't get how you don't get it.
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  #23  
Old 30.03.2020, 20:50
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

and it is definitely 'just a Swiss thing' at all.
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Old 30.03.2020, 21:04
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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Can any one of you tell me why they had to agree on this?
Your topic, tell us why they should not have done this.
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Old 30.03.2020, 21:19
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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Your topic, tell us why they should not have done this.
For exactly the reason given. The free market is not working here.

Iím not saying there isnít a crisis or there isnít a need, but there is no oversight, no scrutiny. At very least they should be seeking an approval from the competition authorities to put this anti-consumer agreement into effect.
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  #26  
Old 30.03.2020, 21:23
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS



Just let it go, hardly anybody to none sees the problem you see.
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  #27  
Old 30.03.2020, 21:49
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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For exactly the reason given. The free market is not working here.
It's actually a perfect example of a free market: it's not regulated, resulting in cartels. That's what you get in a true free market.
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  #28  
Old 30.03.2020, 22:01
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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For exactly the reason given. The free market is not working here.

Iím not saying there isnít a crisis or there isnít a need, but there is no oversight, no scrutiny. At very least they should be seeking an approval from the competition authorities to put this anti-consumer agreement into effect.
I don't understand.

On one hand you want the market to be free. Completely free means that each capitalist profit-oriented business can and will take whatsoever steps they deem sensible and necessary, to keep their business afloat and maximise profits. (And it follows from that... including talking to whomsoever they please about how any steps they choose, to achieve those goals.)

On the other hand, you'd like there to be some sort of authority that watches over them, and scrutinised them, so that they don't... do something... um... so they don't agree together on a strategy which will keep their businesses afloat.

A ski-pass, like a gym subscription, or any other pre-paid voucher, is one of those purchases that is per se a risk.. You buy ii in the hope that you will be able to get your money's worth out of it, from the start date, and before it expires.

Now if you can't go to the gym because you break your leg, you don't get a refund. If you can't go skiing because there is no snow, you don't get a refund. If you can't go skiing because you get the flu, you don't get a refund. If there were a state of emergency because of a war or an earthquake, you wouldn't get a refund. The current situation is something akin to a mixture between such an unforseeable major national and international state of emergency, and getting the flu, except thousands of people. I think you don't get a refund.

Personally, I find this kind of cooperative gathering together to discuss things, then working out a middle to long-term solution that is most likely to save as many jobs as possible, and preserve as many resources as possible, (while admitting that unfortunatley some people will suffer a loss, in this case all those affected by the the fact that the ski season had to be closed early, of whom the temporary employees are particularly badly hit, and the skiiers, of whom you are one), and then paving the way for as close a return to normal as possible, is an admirable part of Swiss life.
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  #29  
Old 30.03.2020, 22:25
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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What they've decided seems to make sense to me.

In some areas, a competitor is only an "enemy" to be triumphed over and potentially eliminated. In this particular sector, however, perhaps they can't diversify as much as others. The mountains are where they are, and the lifts are built where they're built. Those competitors actually need one another, to each help to keep the finances, if possible, more or less stable (which may also include buying one another out, in the background, who knows). They're businesses, and will do what it takes to survive and be profitable, including, if need be, going into cooperation with one another.

From the perspective of anyone who might like to go skiing again in that general region, next year, surely it's preferable for the area to remain more or less stable, too?

If I've understood you correctly, bowlie, it seems to me that the very notion that they have met, discussed things, possibly pooling their skills towards dealing with a crisis, is what is bothering you. But would you feel like this if, say, five restaurants in the same town did the same (and you might have the end of a prepaid voucher in your wallet)? If I were a restaurant owner, I might find it a very useful exercise, to discuss strategies with others facing similar potential losses, and hoping to make it though to next season. Or the directors of a dozen provincial hospitals? Good stategy, could be.

The times are bewildering, and I observe that people who are potentially competitors, are calling one another up to ask each other about their strategies and methods of dealing with this unprecedented phenomenon.
So it was airlines and holiday companies, who got together and agreed they wouldnít refund any holidays or allow anyone to rebook any flights and just lose their money, youíd also be ok with it ?
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  #30  
Old 30.03.2020, 22:31
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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I donít agree. They have everything to gain, while consumers do not benefit in any way. If they need financial help, well there are other ways to secure it than to dip their fingers into consumerís pockets.
The taxpayer's instead then?

I find it a bit strange that you started this thread, as you posted this only last Saturday. Can't quote it properly as that thread is closed now:
<<Skis? I havenít seen snow all winter. Does it have pontoons? >>

You sure you had a seasonal ski pass and used it until no longer possible? Or maybe you just read about this and thought 'what a great opportunity to get upset'?
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  #31  
Old 30.03.2020, 22:53
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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For exactly the reason given. The free market is not working here.

I’m not saying there isn’t a crisis or there isn’t a need, but there is no oversight, no scrutiny. At very least they should be seeking an approval from the competition authorities to put this anti-consumer agreement into effect.
I bet you are the first one pumping your fist in the air when life is good in Switzerland... loving that uniqueness that give you this kind of quality of life. That uniqueness which includes Switzerland often doing things in its own way (within limits) in the face of one of the most regulated, least transparent and most controlling blocs in the world... the EU.

Then the moment you see that some people don't get a refund for a ski pass then all of a sudden it's some dystopian deregulated conspiracy nightmare and your levels of moral outrage that of the Archangel Gabriel. All over... a season ski pass not being refunded. A decision that, despite said moral outrage, you apparently agree with and see the sense of.

Seems rather petty and ironic.

Last edited by Chuff; 31.03.2020 at 10:24. Reason: Typo
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  #32  
Old 31.03.2020, 08:27
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

Not sure why my Quote button doesn't always work. To reply to Mikers comment



"So it was airlines and holiday companies, who got together and agreed they wouldnít refund any holidays or allow anyone to rebook any flights and just lose their money, youíd also be ok with it ?"

Comparing apples and oranges. Miker's comparison is based on refunds/ rebooking flights and hotels with a future start date. It is nearly the end of the season and pass holders have already reaped the majority of the benefit. It is a privilege to live in Switzerland with access to a season of skiing and lifts at a very reasonable price. Be grateful especially in these circumstances.

A truer comparison would be if someone had gone on a 3 week holiday but on day 19 after having a fabulous time, their holiday was forced to be cut short by a disaster such as an avalanche. They were able to fly home without extra cost but had to demand compensation for their lost couple of days from the small local hotel already suffering from the disaster.
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  #33  
Old 31.03.2020, 08:56
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

I think it's a bit churlish to expect a partial refund or voucher for next year for the few remaining ski days this year but playing devil's advocate, how come countries appear to be, and are able to, offer partial refunds for unused days due to the corona virus?

What makes their business model different from the Swiss one that allows them to do this?
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  #34  
Old 31.03.2020, 09:45
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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If they need financial help, well there are other ways to secure it than to dip their fingers into consumer’s pockets.
Personally, I'd prefer they choose to own the situation, rather than look for a government bailout. There's no such thing as free money, and any kind of bailout would likely just impact on consumer taxes....which in turn would be a cost to folks who don't even ski and haven't had any kind of related enjoying from those ski passes, which doesn't seem fair to me at all.

And as another poster has mentioned already, buying a ski pass at anytime has us all completely at the mercy of the weather. A bad season (as we've had in the central region, means ski pass money kept local people in jobs, and infrastructure maintained, but pass holders didn't get a lot of quality ski time!

I chuckled at your immediate assumption of the "deal" being made in a smokey room - I rather fancy that it would have been on a terrace with views of the slopes accompanied by fondue and schnappes; but more likely over skype to avoid unnecessary travel and physical contact.
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  #35  
Old 31.03.2020, 11:39
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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Comparing apples and oranges. Miker's comparison is based on refunds/ rebooking flights and hotels with a future start date. It is nearly the end of the season and pass holders have already reaped the majority of the benefit. It is a privilege to live in Switzerland with access to a season of skiing and lifts at a very reasonable price. Be grateful especially in these circumstances.

A truer comparison would be if someone had gone on a 3 week holiday but on day 19 after having a fabulous time, their holiday was forced to be cut short by a disaster such as an avalanche. They were able to fly home without extra cost but had to demand compensation for their lost couple of days from the small local hotel already suffering from the disaster.
Its not a privilege to live in Switzerland, its a country like any other with plus points and minus points.

To make the "truer" comparison a bit truer: you've gone on a 3 week holiday, the first two weeks were not the highlight as you were waiting for the snow, which arrived in week 3. during this week there was an avalanche, so you had to fly home, missing best part of the holiday as the weather warmed but there was still snow. You contacted the hotel to ask about any possible refund but they remained tight lipped, they wouldnt reveal any details about possible re-insurance they had to cover this, plus they had grouped together with all the hotely, big and small, no matter what there profit margin, to say that they had decided no one would get anything, rather than see if they could - between them - share their proceeds to offer some kind of rebate towards a holiday next year.
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  #36  
Old 31.03.2020, 12:06
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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Its not a privilege to live in Switzerland, its a country like any other with plus points and minus points.

To make the "truer" comparison a bit truer: you've gone on a 3 week holiday, the first two weeks were not the highlight as you were waiting for the snow, which arrived in week 3. during this week there was an avalanche, so you had to fly home, missing best part of the holiday as the weather warmed but there was still snow. You contacted the hotel to ask about any possible refund but they remained tight lipped, they wouldnt reveal any details about possible re-insurance they had to cover this, plus they had grouped together with all the hotely, big and small, no matter what there profit margin, to say that they had decided no one would get anything, rather than see if they could - between them - share their proceeds to offer some kind of rebate towards a holiday next year.
I took Mr. Dog's privilege thing about living in a country with the possibility of skiing all season, any free day you have as one lives so close to ski-resorts.

<< It is a privilege to live in Switzerland with access to a season of skiing and lifts at a very reasonable price.>>
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  #37  
Old 31.03.2020, 12:33
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

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I took Mr. Dog's privilege thing about living in a country with the possibility of skiing all season, any free day you have as one lives so close to ski-resorts.

<< It is a privilege to live in Switzerland with access to a season of skiing and lifts at a very reasonable price.>>

Thank you and, yes, that is exactly what I meant. No need for flights, hotels, holidays from work and fingers crossed there would be snow in the chosen week. It is glorious to wake up in the morning and be able to be on the slopes within an hour or two. I also have the benefit of cheaper passes to my local resort because I am lucky enough to be a resident
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  #38  
Old 31.03.2020, 12:36
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

Let's face it, this pandemic has a very skewed impact, hitting the service-based industries the hardest. The more this hit is taken accross the community, the better for everyone.

For example, my wife and I have well-paying jobs that are not yet at risk. Our child no longer goes to daycare, but we are happy to continue to pay the fees so that this childcare centre and it's staff will be there when it's over.

This needs to happen more broadly, or we will find the free market shrinking into dominant players (eg airlines) and life will get very expensive later on.
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Old 31.03.2020, 14:03
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

@OP - Just be glad that you didnít ski in Ischgl in Austria and count your blessings. Sure youíre down a few francs but (I assume & hope) youíre healthy.

Plenty written online if the story has passed you by but basically the authorities in Ischgl are being accused of covering up the extent of the outbreak in the resort and keeping it open despite the risk to people. Criminal charges are pending...
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Old 31.03.2020, 14:39
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Re: Mountain Companies agree NO REFUNDS

I know so many people who bought season tickets for lower resorts, like some near me in the NE Jura- and the resort did not open for a single day this year. No refunds.
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