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Old 19.05.2020, 13:13
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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Hey! Congrats on becoming a grandparent! That's big news!
For the second time. We have a two year old grandson.

I was reading recently about a case of post-partum pyschosis. Now that's seriously scary. Thankfully, that family are now OK. She wrote a book: What Have I Done? by Laura Dockrill
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Old 19.05.2020, 14:42
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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For the second time. We have a two year old grandson.

I was reading recently about a case of post-partum pyschosis. Now that's seriously scary. Thankfully, that family are now OK. She wrote a book: What Have I Done? by Laura Dockrill
Post- natal PTSD too. Yep. A lot of scary things can happen indeed.
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Old 19.05.2020, 16:38
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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For the second time. We have a two year old grandson. [/I]
Really sorry, I flew through the thread (very belated congrats then!)
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Old 19.05.2020, 16:45
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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Greenmount- I agree that 'too much help' can really add up to interference and lack of confidence. I certainly would not have like my mum, as much as I loved her, and as much as I terribly miss her- to live with us for sure. And even less my mother in law !!! Also agree about close family only visiting- in some cultures and countries, the traditional visits by all and sundry to 'welcome' the baby must be overwhelming. I also had a colleague in the UK who lived in her OH's extended family- and her MIL more or less forced her to bottle feed- so she could be in charge. It caused massive heartache, resentment and depression too. I remember getting so much conflicting advice re sleeping, crying, BF, etc- from health staff and others- in the end I had to say 'leave me to it- I shall find my own way, thanks' - and I did.

Getting the balance right is almost impossible. With Auntie Betty, our next door neighbour when I had second baby- she lived next door- and never took over or gave advice- but she would say things like 'go to bed for a couple of hours- I'll take your two at mine... come when you are ready' - or she'd turn up with a stew or a cake- and say, I made some for you as I was making ours. Brilliant -
When you live abroad, if mom or m-i-l or aunt Betty (I have super cool aunts, I would have preferred any of them) want to "help" you for the first month or so, they have to live with you....

Otherwise, if I was living in my home country I would have simply said please, one visitor at a time and don't take your time... And not in hospital, for sure not.

I agree, getting the balance is difficult, and our moms - dam' if they do it, dam' if they don't. My mom was already getting older and became a very anxious person, not the mom I remembered from my childhood. I was unpleasantly surprised. No resentments though. I still adore her. I still can't live with her more than 2 weeks. lol

Btw, don't know about other cultures, but know 2 families (100% Swiss families) who live in big two generations houses. With lots of kids, the grandparents must do a lot of work....don't agree with that tbh. I know, it's family etc. but if the people are not compatible it can be very difficult.
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Old 19.05.2020, 16:57
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

Yes, which is why I had no help and support for first one- young foreign woman, in foreign country - no family at all. OH's mother was recently widowed and had turned into a wild 'teenager' with a younger BF ... and when knowing the due date said 'bye- off to Greece for a couple of months- see you when I get back ... and that was it. Auntie Betty was of course no aunt of mine, just a wonderful next door neighbour with a teenage daughter who loved babies (became nanny to big stars in London later)...That balance is hard - for sure.

And of course I have been the mother and grandmother- walking on eggs, damned either way- but we also became so close and that bond is amazingly strong. x I wonder if I will become a great grand-mother- grandson is 14 and grand-daughter 11- so hope so.

Last edited by Odile; 19.05.2020 at 19:32.
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Old 19.05.2020, 19:20
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

When I was born in 1961 it was a standard thing in Britain for women to remain in the maternity hospital for 10 days after the birth. It was to get them used to the baby and all the things like bathing, changing and feeding even if they already had children. The maternity nurses assisted. My mother was very grateful for this as it was 8 years since she'd had my sister and my parents were both in their 40s by that point. When I was 6 weeks old my dad took the 2 of my siblings who were still at home off to N Ireland for a holiday with family there to give my mother a rest, her mother stayed with her for a couple of weeks to help.

I expect PND existed, but it was one of those things that was never spoken about. Same with depression and menopause, I've known of 3 women who committed suicide when menopausal. One was a friend's grandmother, she jumped 15 floors from her balcony in a tower block in the late 60s. The second was a friend's mum who overdosed and was found by my friends brother, sadly he also had undiagnosed depression and committed suicide after the funeral. The third was a neighbour I had back in the early 80s whose mother threw herself in front of an express train near Edinburgh, my neighbour had a year old baby at the time.

I am glad we live in an era where people can talk about depression and mental illnesses and that it's no longer shameful.
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Old 19.05.2020, 19:24
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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I am glad we live in an era where people can talk about depression and mental illnesses and that it's no longer shameful.
It's still "shameful" not to do things the way other moms do, not to look constantly happy and accommodating and and....

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I suspect these mom groups can be really toxic to some of us. I never had postnatal depression or anything, but I also found these groups to be-- difficult. I gave them a try and found them to be exhausting since I always had to pretend to want to be happy about everything. New parents get to be grouchy when they want to, sometimes things go wrong and it sucks. In both groups I joined, the only thing it was deemed okay to complain about was the husband.
Yes. Every group can be really toxic when they set expectations that you don't feel like fulfilling.
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Old 19.05.2020, 20:13
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

'Yes. Every group can be really toxic when they set expectations that you don't feel like fulfilling.'

I remember taking part in an experimental mindfulness meditation course at a cancer support centre when I was in remission from breast cancer back in 2007. After the 6 week course ended we decided to keep the group together, it worked until a couple of new ladies joined. One went on the entire time about her husband leaving her 2 years before she was diagnosed and delighted in showing off what she viewed as botched reconstructive surgery at every opportunity (the surgeon had actually done a fantastic job). The other lady bitched the entire time about the accounts team she worked in at the local council and was very highly strung. As I felt I had made huge inroads into my psychological well being and recovery it was better for me to quietly leave the group at that point as I felt the change in the dynamic of the original group was going to be bad for me. You have to do what's right for you in the circumstances and at that point I was grateful for still being alive.
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  #29  
Old 19.05.2020, 20:24
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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I am glad we live in an era where people can talk about depression and mental illnesses and that it's no longer shameful.
Yeah, there really is nothing to be ashamed about, with depression. Quite often, it's due to chemical imbalances in the brain, anyway -- something we really don't have very much conscious control over in the first place, though of course, there are things one can do to help fix those imbalances. I had to stop using social media about a year ago because I realized it was causing my brain to produce so much dopamine that it was rendering my brain incapable of producing sufficient serotonin.

I read an article a few months ago that said most people struggle with depression at least once in their lives. I think the ups and downs are a normal part of life, in many ways. And it would be delusional and irrational to expect people to constantly be happy every day of their lives. Only a very fake society would expect that of people. But with that said, I do often feel like society is becoming increasingly fake.
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  #30  
Old 19.05.2020, 20:38
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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Really sorry, I flew through the thread (very belated congrats then!)
No probls. Just to be clear I mean "I'm a granddad for the second time" not "For the second time of telling you, I've already got a grandkid".
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Old 19.05.2020, 20:57
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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No probls. Just to be clear I mean "I'm a granddad for the second time" not "For the second time of telling you, I've already got a grandkid".
Lol. Ok. Congrats" for the 2nd.

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Old 23.05.2020, 00:37
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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Yeah, there really is nothing to be ashamed about, with depression. Quite often, it's due to chemical imbalances in the brain, anyway -- something we really don't have very much conscious control over in the first place, though of course, there are things one can do to help fix those imbalances. I had to stop using social media about a year ago because I realized it was causing my brain to produce so much dopamine that it was rendering my brain incapable of producing sufficient serotonin.
Wasn't this whole chemical imbalance theory debunked?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...bad-chemistry/
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Old 23.05.2020, 14:25
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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Wasn't this whole chemical imbalance theory debunked?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...bad-chemistry/
Did you even read the article you linked? It does not state that theories about chemical imbalances have been debunked.

It argues other causes of depression seem to exist but have received less attention, funding, and testing than the chemical imbalance theory. It argues alternative theories about causes and other treatment methods should be given more consideration. Seems reasonable to look at multiple causes and solutions, but it's hardly a debunking.

PS - The article is 6 years old, it would be nice to see some more recent research on all the theories.
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Old 23.05.2020, 15:05
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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PS - The article is 6 years old, it would be nice to see some more recent research on all the theories.
Well, psychiatrists claim it was never a theory to begin with:
https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/dep...ce-myths-again

References found at the end. Article from last August.

My impression was the monoamines theory of mental illness was pushed for economical reasons to force governments and insurances to take mental health seriously.
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Old 23.05.2020, 15:37
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

The last paragraph is useful in overview - it states "It is not possible, therefore, to confirm definitively or to reject the catecholamine hypothesis on the basis of data currently available."

(catecholamines = noradrenaline, dopamine, serotonin).

What has been shown is that medications that improve the availability of catecholamines in the brain improve depressive illness - both in comparison to placebos or in comparison to no-treatment.

The problem for science is that, while medications work, that is not proof of pathophysiology (the chain of changes causing illness). But we've been taking paracetamol (Dafalgan) for years and agree it is a painkiller.....but science doesn't know how that works either
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Old 23.05.2020, 16:40
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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What has been shown is that medications that improve the availability of catecholamines in the brain improve depressive illness - both in comparison to placebos or in comparison to no-treatment.

The problem for science is that, while medications work, that is not
Given the Kirsch meta analysis here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you.

I think part of the problem is that antidepressants work for a subset of people and we're not entirely sure who that subset is.
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Old 23.05.2020, 16:57
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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Given the Kirsch meta analysis here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you.

I think part of the problem is that antidepressants work for a subset of people and we're not entirely sure who that subset is.
I have a feeling the difference will also not be just in biochemical impact but the consciousness of it. The consciousness of the whole trouble. With some patients it really boils down to more consciousness, more control and hence improvement. I've read really interesting studies on placebo effect. More consciousness, less placebo effect (the mind was aware of the fakeness, illusion or however one calls it). It was, interestingly enough, tied to one's level of intellect and perceptiveness of reality.

Last edited by MusicChick; 23.05.2020 at 17:08.
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Old 23.05.2020, 17:13
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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Given the Kirsch meta analysis here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you.

I think part of the problem is that antidepressants work for a subset of people and we're not entirely sure who that subset is.
If someone's depression is not due to their brain not producing enough serotonin, then it would make sense that an SSRI might not work for them (SSRI's are the most commonly prescribed form of antidepressants). Also, there is a potential side-effect of anti-depressants that causes the brain to not produce enough dopamine (because the more serotonin your brain produces, the more dopamine it cannot produce, and vice-versa), and low dopamine can also cause depression.

But the fact is, anti-depressants do also help a lot of people. My best friend's husband was recently suicidal and couldn't sleep, and this went on for almost two months, and then he was finally put on an anti-depressant and now feels completely fine because of it.

But the original thing you were arguing is that brain chemistry cannot play a role in depression, and I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.

"People with clinical depression often have increased levels of monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A), an enzyme that breaks down key neurotransmitters, resulting in very low levels of serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine. In 2013, a team from Stanford using optogenetic mouse models showed that inhibiting midbrain dopamine-releasing neurons induced depression-like behaviors caused by chronic stress, reinforcing the link between low dopamine and depression in patients."
https://www.jax.org/news-and-insight...ind-depression
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Old 23.05.2020, 17:57
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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Wasn't this whole chemical imbalance theory debunked?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...bad-chemistry/
Yes. Its as crazy as to say that some people are born with a killer gene
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Old 23.05.2020, 18:11
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Re: Lockdown and Post Natal Depression

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The paucity of paternity leave is an absolute scandal.

Here in Switzerland its just gone up from 1 day (!) to 2 weeks. Thankfully, my company has a much more reasonable 3 months.
https://www.ch.ch/en/paternity-leave/
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