Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 18.06.2020, 18:23
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
If the seller has any good will then he should give you your money back. He sounds like an arse hole
Kind of an understatement.

More news. He called my wife.

From what I'm told, he talked and talked, interrupted my wife at every turn, wouldn't let her finish one sentence, became irate, started yelling at her, "used the informal you and he doesn't even know me" (this is a big one for her, I guess?), and so she yelled back at him, and he hung up. Texted saying, "you yell at your husband, not at me. We're finished with this transaction".

So, now it's a fight.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at aixsyd for this post:
  #42  
Old 18.06.2020, 18:26
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
In the end I guess it's a matter of how far you want to push it, as from the advert etc he clearly mis-sold the item as "in new condition" when with it being 6 years old there is no way it can reasonably be mechanically described like that unless it was hardly ever used in all that time.
You're 100% right.

Now I want to throw the book at him. I don't care if I have to spend more than I did just to do it, this is unacceptable. You don't freak out at someone who you don't even know when you're in the wrong. I was nothing but fair, kind, and reasonable with him.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 18.06.2020, 18:30
sva's Avatar
sva sva is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: V/G, FR
Posts: 1,032
Groaned at 19 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 772 Times in 390 Posts
sva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond reputesva has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
....
Is the seller under any obligation to return my money for the defective unit? Am I just screwed and stuck with a repair bill?
I once bought a used oven on anibis. It repeatedly tripped the circuit in my home whenevr i started it. i spoke to the seller, and finally the kind person refunded the money into my bank, and thanked me for diposing it off.

If advertised as 'working well' it does create a contractual liability IMHO.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 18.06.2020, 18:44
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
It's unfortunate that things had to be this way. I believe that I have been completely kind, and reasonable in this situation. All I wanted to do was to have a working dehumidifier, and when that wasn't possible, come to some sort of reasonable outcome.

We wanted to do this amicably. Why don't you? From my understanding, you wouldn't let my wife finish a single sentence. She has every right to be upset when someone interrupts them constantly. I was told that you spoke harshly with XXXX from [manufacturer] as well, and because of your call, they no longer want anything to do with this matter.

If this is how you want to proceed with this transaction, we are happy to oblige. This is a written declaration that I am withdrawing from the buying contract, as the dehumidifier you sold me was clearly not tested before the sale, was described as working in new condition when it is mechanically impossible for the dehumidifier to be in such condition after six years without repair. When an item is listed as "functioning as new", it creates a contractual liability.

Furthermore, the dehumidifier was pictured as wrapped in plastic giving evidence that the item was new when it was not, and I was only informed of its age after the problems arose. You personally unwrapped the dehumidifier in front of me which is further evidence that it was not tested before the sale.

We were happy to accept half, as a gesture of goodwill, but at this point we are requesting a full refund. I am giving you 10 days to reply to this e-mail which gives you enough time to legally have two days off to read this email thoroughly, comprehend its contents calmly, and decide how you would like to proceed.

If you continue to be hostile with us, we will take legal action if necessary.

Cordially,
Anyone else love some drama?

My research tells me the next step is a Justice of the Peace, but it seems like the seller could just not agree to it, in which case I'm somewhat screwed? If he doesn't consent, is there another avenue?

If, after 10 days, and he doesn't want to rectify this, or just doesn't reply, is it betreibung time?

Last edited by aixsyd; 18.06.2020 at 19:23.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:07
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: CH
Posts: 10,795
Groaned at 2,025 Times in 1,116 Posts
Thanked 5,048 Times in 3,191 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
You're 100% right.

Now I want to throw the book at him. I don't care if I have to spend more than I did just to do it, this is unacceptable. You don't freak out at someone who you don't even know when you're in the wrong. I was nothing but fair, kind, and reasonable with him.
is he Swiss?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:08
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
is he Swiss?
Yes.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:17
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: CH
Posts: 10,795
Groaned at 2,025 Times in 1,116 Posts
Thanked 5,048 Times in 3,191 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Have you read this

https://tutti.zendesk.com/hc/de/arti...%A4hrleistung-


https://tutti.zendesk.com/hc/de/arti...kauft-was-nun-
In principle, a seller is obliged not to hand over defective goods (Art. 197 OR). This obligation is called guarantee. The buyer should check the nature of the purchased item as soon as possible after receipt. Should he discover a defect in the process, it is the responsibility of the buyer to report this defect to the seller immediately (Art. 201 OR). The claims arising from material defect warranty can be asserted by the buyer within two years after delivery of the item (Art. 210 OR).



Example: Anna buys a diving watch from Michael. This should be waterproof up to 200 meters in depth. The first dive after three months shows immediately that the watch is not waterproof. Anna must report this defect to Michael immediately and can a) return the watch and request a refund of the purchase price (Art. 205 Par. 1 OR), b) keep the watch and the difference for the defective watch - the watch that is no longer waterproof has less value than the waterproof watch - demand (Art. 205 para. 1 OR) or in the case of justifiable items c) request a functioning replacement watch (Art. 206 para. 1 OR). However, Anna must prove that it is a defect and that she did not cause damage through improper use. (Source: http://www.hochheuser.ch/2017/03/iff...stung-schweiz/)
__________________
The following 3 users would like to thank Omtatsat for this useful post:

President Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, Kim Jong-un
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:20
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
Have you read this

https://tutti.zendesk.com/hc/de/arti...%A4hrleistung-

In principle, a seller is obliged not to hand over defective goods (Art. 197 OR). This obligation is called guarantee. The buyer should check the nature of the purchased item as soon as possible after receipt. Should he discover a defect in the process, it is the responsibility of the buyer to report this defect to the seller immediately (Art. 201 OR). The claims arising from material defect warranty can be asserted by the buyer within two years after delivery of the item (Art. 210 OR).



Example: Anna buys a diving watch from Michael. This should be waterproof up to 200 meters in depth. The first dive after three months shows immediately that the watch is not waterproof. Anna must report this defect to Michael immediately and can a) return the watch and request a refund of the purchase price (Art. 205 Par. 1 OR), b) keep the watch and the difference for the defective watch - the watch that is no longer waterproof has less value than the waterproof watch - demand (Art. 205 para. 1 OR) or in the case of justifiable items c) request a functioning replacement watch (Art. 206 para. 1 OR). However, Anna must prove that it is a defect and that she did not cause damage through improper use. (Source: http://www.hochheuser.ch/2017/03/iff...stung-schweiz/)
I did not read this, and it's good to know - however, when dealing with a now-combative and hostile seller who clearly doesn't want to make right, what good does any of that do for me?

I suppose, if anything, it would help during the betreibung or Justice of the Peace proceedings.

EDIT: The only thing that bothers me about that is in that example, "However, Anna must prove that it is a defect and that she did not cause damage through improper use." - I think this guy will try to argue that I did something that made it not work. All I did was plug it in.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:27
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: CH
Posts: 10,795
Groaned at 2,025 Times in 1,116 Posts
Thanked 5,048 Times in 3,191 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Reading your old posts this is not the first time you have had such problems
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank omtatsat for this useful post:
  #50  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:33
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
Reading your old posts this is not the first time you have had such problems
Tell me about it. A series of bad luck. That said, when in doubt on these matters, I try to consult people here that would know better than I.

The thing that bothers me the most, of all my dealings with people selling things online is that there's not a really simple way to protect the consumer. Especially with Ricardo.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:37
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: CH
Posts: 10,795
Groaned at 2,025 Times in 1,116 Posts
Thanked 5,048 Times in 3,191 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
Tell me about it. A series of bad luck. That said, when in doubt on these matters, I try to consult people here that would know better than I.

The thing that bothers me the most, of all my dealings with people selling things online is that there's not a really simple way to protect the consumer. Especially with Ricardo.
Ricardo was good back in its early days. Now its just shit
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:40
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
Ricardo was good back in its early days. Now its just shit
Tell me about it. Oh, and add the fact that banks here don't seem to have any sort of way of doing a chargeback in the event of provable fraud. "You sent the money to them on purpose, therefor there is no fraud". Please.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:42
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

A new issue I've run into - since I don't have the seller's address, I can't initiate a betreibung without it. I do have a working phone number and his name, but of course Tutti won't give me the address. I've tried local.ch, but no luck.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 18.06.2020, 20:45
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: CH
Posts: 10,795
Groaned at 2,025 Times in 1,116 Posts
Thanked 5,048 Times in 3,191 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
Tell me about it. Oh, and add the fact that banks here don't seem to have any sort of way of doing a chargeback in the event of provable fraud. "You sent the money to them on purpose, therefor there is no fraud". Please.
its full of professional sellers and now they ( Ricardo ) take a percentage of the selling price. Before they just charged a small fee for running the auction. And there are too many buyers forcing the prices up
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 18.06.2020, 21:06
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Alright, now something REALLY fishy is going on.

The guy sent me the receipt for this thing, and it has his name, phone number and address. I picked this thing up in Stabio, TI. His address is listed as Trimbach, SO. Looked him up on Facebook, and he has a profile. But this looks absolutely NOTHING like the guy I dealt with in person. The guy I dealt with in person was somewhat heavyset, and older. This guy on facebook is slender and young. 100% not the same person. That said, the number he called us from matches the e-mail receipt.

What's more strange is that the e-mail address I had been e-mailing originally is different than the one from the e-mail receipt. The original e-mail address includes a number, which is likely a birth year, which would line up with the guy I met in person and NOT the person I see on Facebook.

The guy I dealt with in person was friendly as hell, but the person that called my wife was rude and belligerent. I can't make heads or tails of this. None of this makes sense. The guy I dealt with seemed like he was working at this apartment building as a groundskeeper, had keys and access to locked rooms in the basement, etc. The guy that called my wife said he was a truck driver.

I'm totally lost.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 18.06.2020, 22:45
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 1,435
Groaned at 29 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 833 Times in 499 Posts
Landers has earned the respect of manyLanders has earned the respect of manyLanders has earned the respect of many
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Father and son? The pick-up address was some random address? You got no receipt I suppose and Tutti didn't give you any details of the seller and can neither help you with any complaint?


Maybe you need to find someone ruder to call them.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 18.06.2020, 23:02
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
Father and son? The pick-up address was some random address? You got no receipt I suppose and Tutti didn't give you any details of the seller and can neither help you with any complaint?


Maybe you need to find someone ruder to call them.
Well, my wife got pretty damn angry and loud at this guy...

I don't think it's father and son, he didn't seem old enough to be this guy's dad, plus he said he had a young daughter living in Italy. I don't know whats going on -_-
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 19.06.2020, 14:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,682
Groaned at 305 Times in 253 Posts
Thanked 9,879 Times in 5,216 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
First, I don't want half. I want the full amount. The unit was handled with utmost care in transit, and this issue is not my fault. IMO, he needs to prove the item worked when he sold it to me -- but he can't, because it was wrapped in plastic.
In a transaction between two private people the seller can exclude any kind of warranty. If your seller didn't do that explicitly, the full 2yrs warranty applies (unless the defect had been mentioned before the sale).

Certinly you'd have mentioned such an exclusion if there was one, so he's liable to get it fixed. That means the seller has the right, if they so decide, to get the goods repaired at their cost, or (probably impossible here) exchange it with an identical functioning device. Otherwise the buyer has the right to unwind the deal and demand the money back.

The reason tutti sent you those links is that's what they say.

As for getting the address, contact the police. They'll provide the holder's data behind a car number if you can show plausible reason, I would think (guess) the same applies to a phone number.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #59  
Old 19.06.2020, 14:52
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cagiallo
Posts: 133
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts
aixsyd has earned some respectaixsyd has earned some respect
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
In a transaction between two private people the seller can exclude any kind of warranty. If your seller didn't do that explicitly, the full 2yrs warranty applies (unless the defect had been mentioned before the sale).

That means the seller has the right, if they so decide, to get the goods repaired at their cost, or (probably impossible here) exchange it with an identical functioning device. Otherwise the buyer has the right to unwind the deal and demand the money back.

The reason tutti sent you those links is that's what they say.

As for getting the address, contact the police. They'll provide the holder's data behind a car number if you can show plausible reason, I would think (guess) the same applies to a phone number.
Appreciate that.

I finally received a reply from him today. I'll translate. It's a good one.

Quote:
No, your statement is incorrect!

I called [manufacturer] simply because I found several of your emails today and on the first email I read you were already asking for a refund, before you even knew what it was, and if there was a problem in the dehumidifier.

From there I decided to call [manufacturer] to try to understand if there was something wrong and if eventually you could understand the cause, and that's how much !!

He told me that you had made contact with him and explained the problem to me .... From there, he still asked me if I had been willing to give you back something you paid to me to fill the situation.

Since it is not possible to understand if the defect was already present or after the delivery, I replied that I would meet you with the half.

At this point he told me that he had to call you and that he himself would report to you.

Now, since Sunday and I have been working at night and I go home not before 7/7: 30 in the morning .... you think I have all this time to stay behind the cell. Or reading and writing emails?

If you want, I am still willing to meet you with the proposal I made but with 3 conditions:

1 that you call me and not your wife as if I need to tell you the reasons

2 you have to give me time next week so that at the end of the week I can prepare 2 lines written for a common agreement, given that thanks to today's call the trust has faded a little less.

3 and if you agree we will join you 2, even your daughter if you want, but nothing to do with your wife.

I am sorry for this situation.

If you, but above all your wife disagrees, you can proceed as you wish, I am certainly not a person who is afraid of threats, neither verbal nor much less written, I just want to mediate the discomfort that has arisen between us, you I assure you that if this situation had arisen with your wife I would not be here talking about it.
He really didn't like my wife.

My final reply, sending tonight to let him stew for a while..

Quote:
It is a pity that things have to be this way. I think I was completely kind and reasonable in this situation. All I wanted to do was have a functioning dehumidifier and, when that was not possible, reach a reasonable result.

I understand that you may have had difficulty reading and returning my emails in a timely manner. I understand you have work, and it's not your fault. It was my mistake to see how quickly you returned my emails before there was a big problem with the dehumidifier. When I expected timely replies and had received no reply despite multiple emails, it seemed to me that perhaps I was being scammed or exploited.

I want you to see that from my point of view; I knew there was a serious problem that would cost me money regardless of what [manufacturer] had to say - and I worried a lot about being screwed.

We wanted to do it amicably. From what I understand, you wouldn't let my wife finish a single sentence during your call. She has every right to be upset when someone constantly interrupts them. I have been told that you have also spoken hard to [manufacturer] and, because of your phone call, they no longer wants to have anything to do with this matter.

It's also a shame that you didn't allow my wife to speak, because she was on your side before the phone call. She wanted to talk to you and mediate between us to bring me down to CHF175, since she is not a person who likes to fight.

If this is how you want to proceed with this transaction, we will be happy to obligate you. This is a written declaration that I am withdrawing from the purchase contract, since the dehumidifier you sold me was not clearly tested before the sale, it has been described as functioning in new conditions when it is mechanically impossible for the dehumidifier to be in such conditions after six o'clock. years without repair. When an item is listed as "functioning as new", a contractual liability is created.

Furthermore, the dehumidifier was depicted as wrapped in plastic, demonstrating that the item was new when it was not, and I was only informed of its age after the problems occurred. You personally unwrapped the dehumidifier in front of me, which is further proof that it has not been tested before the sale.

According to the terms of service of Tutti.ch:

"If the seller has not expressly excluded the warranty on the product sold, I am entitled to the warranty."

“In principle, the seller is obliged not to deliver defective goods (art. 197 CO). This obligation is called a guarantee. The buyer should check the condition of the purchased item as soon as possible after receipt. If he discovers a defect, the buyer is obliged to notify the seller immediately (art. 201 CO). The rights based on material defects can be asserted by the purchaser for a period of two years from the delivery of the object (art. 210 CO). "

The fact is simple; the dehumidifier was not tested correctly by you before the sale. You didn't know there was a problem until I found out. For this reason, I ask for the return and refund.

We were happy to accept half of it as a gesture of goodwill, but at this point we demand a full refund. The next steps will be for us is to file a report and obtain your legal residence address so that we can approach the justice of the peace or issue a debt execution.

I'm giving you 10 days to reply to this e-mail which gives you enough time to legally have two free days to read this e-mail thoroughly, understand its content calmly and decide how you want to proceed.

If you continue to be hostile to us, we will take legal action if necessary. If you are ready to tell a judge or legal authority that you have thoroughly tested the dehumidifier despite having told my wife that it had not been used for a year or that it was still wrapped in plastic when I came to get it, please do that.

The only response I will accept at this point is that you accept the responsibility of warranty, that you will accept the item back, and issue a full refund.

Cordially,
So, I had the balls to go visit the guys address where I picked it up, just to verify that the name of the person actually lives at that address, and the name is on the mailbox, so I think I have all I need for the betreibung at this point. Name, "an" address, and his phone number.

Last edited by aixsyd; 19.06.2020 at 15:09.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 19.06.2020, 16:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,182
Groaned at 855 Times in 598 Posts
Thanked 16,618 Times in 6,532 Posts
Chuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Quote:
View Post
He really didn't like my wife.
Well, if someone has your money and you want it back then don't get into a shouting match with them. It was not wise for her to lose it like that and it did not help the situation or your ability to appeal to his better nature.

Quote:
View Post
So, I had the balls to go visit the guys address where I picked it up, just to verify that the name of the person actually lives at that address, and the name is on the mailbox, so I think I have all I need for the betreibung at this point. Name, "an" address, and his phone number.
Can a betreibung be used like this? I thought it was only for cases of unpaid debts.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Missing package- any recourse? DCSmurph Daily life 12 26.01.2018 20:07
legal recourse? Brass427 Other/general 4 02.06.2016 22:26
Shoddy Painter - What is my recourse or rights ? RuJoMa Housing in general 10 12.09.2015 21:51
Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in CH? sedebu Housing in general 14 08.04.2013 11:39
Internet shopping False advertising recourse? Hightower Other/general 3 15.08.2011 08:07


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0