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  #61  
Old 19.06.2020, 17:22
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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Well, if someone has your money and you want it back then don't get into a shouting match with them. It was not wise for her to lose it like that and it did not help the situation or your ability to appeal to his better nature.



Can a betreibung be used like this? I thought it was only for cases of unpaid debts.
Yes, it was definitely bad form of her, but honestly, I would have, too, if someone spoke to me the way he spoke to her. C'est la vie.

If someone can show me that it cannot be used this way, by all means, but from how I understand the situation, he's bound by law to give me the money back and is refusing to do it. Sounds like a debt to me.
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  #62  
Old 19.06.2020, 17:59
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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Yes, it was definitely bad form of her, but honestly, I would have, too, if someone spoke to me the way he spoke to her. C'est la vie.

If someone can show me that it cannot be used this way, by all means, but from how I understand the situation, he's bound by law to give me the money back and is refusing to do it. Sounds like a debt to me.
Ok well I hope you are right or it may end up costing a lot more than the dehumidifier...
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  #63  
Old 19.06.2020, 18:07
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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Ok well I hope you are right or it may end up costing a lot more than the dehumidifier...
The betreibung costs CFH33, I'm happy to spend it
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  #64  
Old 20.06.2020, 22:24
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Remember that he has the option to get it repaired, that's his choice not yours. Since the dehumidifier is probably bulky, transport costs may be an issue - am I right to think that this is of no concern, even more so now that things have evolved the way they did?

It's good procedure that you've given him ten days. Unfortunately, if he doesn't reply you have no proof that he received the e-mail. In this case it's recommended that you send the last email again, but this time on paper and as a registered letter. Of course you could do that in parallel (perhaps give him a few days?) should you want to speed things up a bit. Though it may be useful to let emotions cool down a bit, nobody takes an attack on their spouse lightly.
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Old 20.06.2020, 23:33
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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.......I've taken it apart, cleaned it completely, removed the lint filter.......
After this action the subject is basically closed.
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  #66  
Old 21.06.2020, 00:40
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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In response to your email,
I will remind you when it follows,

1 my item was published in a public used items platform whereby I indicated the brand, the price at the time that I purchased it, what I asked for (the 350fr.-) and the fact that it was fully functional, and no word on warranty and anything else.

2 you came to get it and I removed the plastic that wrapped it, to protect it over time.

3 and true, I went to retrieve an adapter to put it into operation, I cleaned up the still dirty filter, so you the little girl and the lady from my apartment building saw that we tried it in the laundry, and this is proof that you knew that you weren't buying a new item, which wasn't even reported on the ad. (the ad said it was fully functional) which was so for me.

3 you had the sacred holy right to prove it, and I would have given it a chance, as on the other hand I do with any article I put on tutti.ch even if I am not bound by any rule or law of any kind let alone give a guarantee on these platforms, and your wife who is Swiss knows this very well, on the same platform or sold the bike for a sum well beyond what we are talking about without any clause or what you want to guarantee coverage when tutti.ch always a platform for used or new goods without any conditions, it is not a binding contract, nothing has been written and nothing you want to claim has been agreed a priori.¹ĺ

4 It is true that to help you load it on your car I told you that given the lack of space and to avoid breaking the rear window to put it down, which you did not want and placed it on the rear seats.
Since you know that these articles are not to be loaded inclined, you will also know that after you have inclined them they must remain still for at least 2/4 hours which you have not done, if this is what you would like me to believe.

5 you came to pick it up on Thursday 11 at 13:30 and you write me the first email at 12:00 on the following Saturday 13.6.20, so to prove the contrary it has been running for 2 full days that for me everything can have happened .

6 I tried to meet you by giving you my full support to be able to reassure you, giving you sites and reference numbers (and here [manufacturer] comes into play).

7 I do a job that leads me to do a week of the day, as in the case of the week you came to pick it up, and a week the night starting on Sunday afternoon and the return home is not expected before 6:30 am / 7 of the next morning, it is as I have said several times I unplug the plug and go to sleep.

8 I called [manufacturer]t to find out if there was a problem and what was due in order to understand if it was attributable to before or after the delivery, and he but said that it can happen at any time, and what could have been the expense to fix it, hence my decision to come up against you with the half, just to come up against you.
If I had known that the problem was already present 1 I would not have sold it, much less I would have been interested in it and even less would have tried to find a way to meet.
And I also tell you another thing, [manufacturer] is not there with me who understood that I wanted to mediate and I was interested in meeting you but sooner with you that you broke him continuously on FB taking away time from his day of continuously.

9 as you have well demonstrated in your video, you have opened a purchased item that IF IT WAS NEW, (and I repeat what it wasn't and you knew it) you would also have lost an official guarantee of any product purchased.

10 the phone call with your wife immediately went live from her saying to me:
Call [manufacturer] and not us? As if it were who knows what is bad .... it is my right to know what and for what I should repay someone or something.
When I was trying to explain to him the reason why I didn't reply to your emails saying that:

When I work, I can't write, let alone do office work because I'm busy at work for 13/15 hours ...

She replies above saying to me:
Don't tell me that only she works, my husband does 15 hours a day and answers everyone, not only she works !! ...

So it's you who should learn to listen or stop talking before shooting zero ....
Since maybe it is not understood, I point out that being a driver I am not on the phone when I work just to avoid what happened ...

stay at work and on the phone FOR ME IT DOES NOT EXIST.

So I wrongly replied that if you have the opportunity to answer everyone you worked in the office, but I just meant to say that you have a computer at hand ....
I found out later that you have a business and therefore all the more reason it is easier, because you still have to answer your customers.

She was upset by raising her voice and yelling at me, and I ended the call.

This I can do with you, with his sister with his father if he wishes, but certainly NOT with me.


11 Now, given your request for a full refund, I in turn withdraw the proposal to come against you with half and all this will be evaluated in turn already on Monday.
I remind you that the law that you invited me to read I know it well from Swiss, and it is for new articles with a receipt and contractual agreement you are entitled to a 2-year warranty which you cannot expect on tutti.ch and with used material having said that,

I remind you that when you came it was unpacked from the clearly visible plastic that it was not original packaging or a new item, it was turned on, cleaned the filter in the laundry room with a witness, it was fine for you and therefore the sale was concluded between private individuals of an apparently used item, functioning and in excellent condition (or you would not have picked it up), you have tried it for 2 days, you have opened it, transported it used and managed as you thought, as far as I am concerned, I really think you are the one you want dive.
I would also like to point out that your wife, as you were told, that I used it for a year, then it was put aside and it was reused again last year (exactly last September) (I forgot, even this I can try) the caretaker went to see the problem for a week and saw it in operation, packed it and brought it to the cellar.
As far as I'm concerned, working and in excellent condition.

Now use your 10 days as you see fit, on Monday I take my information on it, and you know I do it even if I already know how it ends.

I'll attach a page to read to you and then I'll let you know the conclusion of the week.

I have never loved scams,
And who points the finger at me without certainties, but how do you say that? ...

There is always a first time
This is the page he linked me: https://tutti.zendesk.com/hc/it/arti...ni-di-utilizzo

Well, this is going to be fun.

Initial impressions, it seems as if he completely misunderstands the difference between the original manufacturer's warranty and the warranty that is established between myself and him when he posted the ad.
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  #67  
Old 21.06.2020, 01:01
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Just want to get my ducks in a row here...

Quote:
1 my item was published in a public used items platform whereby I indicated the brand, the price at the time that I purchased it, what I asked for (the 350fr.-) and the fact that it was fully functional, and no word on warranty and anything else.
So in his words, he did not mention any warranty (or lack of it), and he specifically listed it as working "as new".

Quote:
2 you came to get it and I removed the plastic that wrapped it, to protect it over time.
Further proves it was not tested before the sale

Quote:
3 and true, I went to retrieve an adapter to put it into operation, I cleaned up the still dirty filter, so you the little girl and the lady from my apartment building saw that we tried it in the laundry, and this is proof that you knew that you weren't buying a new item, which wasn't even reported on the ad. (the ad said it was fully functional) which was so for me.
True, I knew in that moment it was not literally brand new, and had the chance to walk from the deal, but I didn't as I expected it to still function as new. I did not know at this point it was 6 years old, and put in storage, and rewrapped.

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4 It is true that to help you load it on your car I told you that given the lack of space and to avoid breaking the rear window to put it down, which you did not want and placed it on the rear seats.
Since you know that these articles are not to be loaded inclined, you will also know that after you have inclined them they must remain still for at least 2/4 hours which you have not done, if this is what you would like me to believe.
He's making some big leaps here. I did let it rest for a few hours before using it, and it was transported vertically, not inclined.

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5 you came to pick it up on Thursday 11 at 13:30 and you write me the first email at 12:00 on the following Saturday 13.6.20, so to prove the contrary it has been running for 2 full days that for me everything can have happened .
Yes, this is the time I allowed it to run to see if it worked, took a while to get going, etc. Don't think there's anything wrong here.

Quote:
8 I called [manufacturer]t to find out if there was a problem and what was due in order to understand if it was attributable to before or after the delivery, and he but said that it can happen at any time, and what could have been the expense to fix it, hence my decision to come up against you with the half, just to come up against you.
He said this same thing to my wife, but the manufacturer didn't say anything about "it could happen at any time" to me - he told me there's no way to know when it happened - however, as the manufacturer e-mailed me, the repair would be to fix a "refrigerant circuit (and declog the circuit filter)". I'm not sure how I'd be responsible for a faulty refrigerant circuit, or would have clogged a refrigerant filter in the short time I had the device.

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9 as you have well demonstrated in your video, you have opened a purchased item that IF IT WAS NEW, (and I repeat what it wasn't and you knew it) you would also have lost an official guarantee of any product purchased.
It was opened and filmed at the request of the manufacturer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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11 Now, given your request for a full refund, I in turn withdraw the proposal to come against you with half and all this will be evaluated in turn already on Monday.
I remind you that the law that you invited me to read I know it well from Swiss, and it is for new articles with a receipt and contractual agreement you are entitled to a 2-year warranty which you cannot expect on tutti.ch and with used material
Yes, I think this is the big mistake here. Please someone let me know if he is mistaken, or if the information I've been given here is mistaken. My understanding is that unless he stated that it is sold without warranty, sold as-is, or otherwise, he is required to guarantee the item *himself*, and has absolutely nothing to do with the original manufacturers warranty.
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Old 21.06.2020, 01:15
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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Remember that he has the option to get it repaired, that's his choice not yours. Since the dehumidifier is probably bulky, transport costs may be an issue - am I right to think that this is of no concern, even more so now that things have evolved the way they did?

It's good procedure that you've given him ten days. Unfortunately, if he doesn't reply you have no proof that he received the e-mail. In this case it's recommended that you send the last email again, but this time on paper and as a registered letter. Of course you could do that in parallel (perhaps give him a few days?) should you want to speed things up a bit. Though it may be useful to let emotions cool down a bit, nobody takes an attack on their spouse lightly.
If he's unwilling to give me back the CHF350, I doubt he'll opt to get it repaired, but that is his choice. Seeing his latest reply makes me think he'd rather insert the device into me than get it repaired

He has replied, so he did get the message. I already typed up some sort of reply, but I don't think it's going to have any effect, and I've already trashed it. From what I understand, I've done everything I can. I'll be placing calls to my insurance on Monday, as well as a few lawyers in my area to get some additional assistance.
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  #69  
Old 21.06.2020, 01:29
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

I worry about one thing, noted on the Tutti page about the guarantee:

Quote:
For commercial purchases, the warranty is usually replaced by a two-year guarantee.

Note: This period is only mandatory for purchases between private individuals and companies. When buying between private individuals, as it takes place on tutti.ch, there is no guarantee.

If this waiver is expressly noted, any liability on the part of the private seller is void. However, if the warranty is not contractually waived, then the two-year warranty applies with all rights to defects.

In general: Products that are sold on tutti.ch should not be defective. If they are, they should be clearly shown in the advertisement text.
The language here is a bit odd.

Quote:
Note: This period is only mandatory for purchases between private individuals and companies. When buying between private individuals, as it takes place on tutti.ch, there is no guarantee.
The "period" the refer to, is that referring to the "two year period"?

Quote:
When buying between private individuals, as it takes place on tutti.ch, there is no guarantee.
This statement contradicts a lot of what has been said by other members on this site. This statement worries me.
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Old 21.06.2020, 01:44
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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This statement contradicts a lot of what has been said by other members on this site. This statement worries me.
https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/de/home...-1-1-2013.html

https://www.beobachter.ch/rechtslexi...gewahrleistung

https://haushaltsapparate.net/garant...chten-sollten/

OK. I'm a bit more calm now, but I still cannot find if this law only applies to companies selling to private, or if it also applies to private to private (or in my case, private to company, as this purchase was for my company and paid with company cash).

Last edited by aixsyd; 21.06.2020 at 02:43.
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  #71  
Old 23.06.2020, 14:49
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Bunch of updates.

Contacted a lawyer and my insurance. Lawyer says yes, the guarantee exists between private sellers and buyers as well as between companies and buyers, etc. He also told me that me opening it up to show the manufacturer doesn't void any warranty or guarantee between me and the seller, as "the only way to verify that the object works properly is to prove it".

He said I've done well so far, the next step is to send a registered letter, as I have today, and if he does not comply, issue a betreibung. The reason for this is that if I appeal to go directly to a justice of the peace, he can simply decline to do it. Issuing a betreibung forces him to either acknowledge the debt, or refute it, in which case he is then obligated to appear in front of a justice of the peace, and argue his case or otherwise forfeit his position.
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  #72  
Old 23.06.2020, 15:09
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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Issuing a betreibung forces him to either acknowledge the debt, or refute it, in which case he is then obligated to appear in front of a justice of the peace, and argue his case or otherwise forfeit his position.
You've got that backwards.

If he refutes it, YOU have to argue YOUR case before the justice of the peace!

Tom
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  #73  
Old 23.06.2020, 15:10
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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You've got that backwards.

If he refutes it, YOU have to argue YOUR case before the justice of the peace!

Tom
Yes, you're right. But he can't disagree to the proceedings.
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  #74  
Old 24.06.2020, 00:00
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

One additional thing: who makes a claim has to prove it.

You have to prove the veracity of your claim, and that the good is defective, that's what will happen in the process of the Betreibung. If he says you damaged it, that's his claim he will have to prove (I would think a very plausible claim would do, say if you had dented the thing with a hammer - you get the idea). If he can't do that the Gewährleistungspflicht (duty to fulfill the promise, i.e. that it's "as new") hits.

It seems that I was wrong with saying that the seller has the right to decide what will happen next (repair, or unwinding the deal). This is typically the case as a customer of a Swiss retailer, but that appears to be a consequence of their T&C where they turn that around. Based on the law alone, which is the case here, the buyer decides.
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Old 24.06.2020, 00:16
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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One additional thing: who makes a claim has to prove it.

You have to prove the veracity of your claim, and that the good is defective, that's what will happen in the process of the Betreibung. If he says you damaged it, that's his claim he will have to prove (I would think a very plausible claim would do, say if you had dented the thing with a hammer - you get the idea). If he can't do that the Gewährleistungspflicht (duty to fulfill the promise, i.e. that it's "as new") hits.
Correct. I think I have ample proof; first, the fact that it doesn't work, and the fact that of the repairs it needs is something that happens from old age. I have that on record from the manufacturer. Second, the fact that it was wrapped before put in storage and unwrapped in front of me, proving that it wasn't tested properly before listing it for sale. Third, the fact that it was advertised as "functions as new", but was six years old and that fact was obfuscated from me until an issue was presented.

He would have to prove that I 1) didn't transport it correctly, which he saw that I did, 2) prove that I didn't wait long enough after transport to turn it on -- which he can't one way or another (though I did), and 3) would have to prove that he did test it before the sale (), 4) would have to prove that the repairs needed were caused by potentially mishandling the product, and 5) that my removing the cover somehow caused the refrigerant filter to clog.

Small edit: even if I did transport it incorrectly, the repairs needed wouldn't be from the consequence of mishandled transportation. Dehumidifiers have compressors inside them with oil, and that oil can dislodge and move and needs to settle in place before use. My repair is the refrigerant circuit and filter, which is a totally different subsystem. The manufacturer wanted to replace the compressor simply due to its age, as they "couldn't guarantee how long the compressor would last".
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Old 24.06.2020, 08:44
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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He would have to prove that I 1) didn't transport it correctly, which he saw that I did, 2) prove that I didn't wait long enough after transport to turn it on -- which he can't one way or another (though I did), and 3) would have to prove that he did test it before the sale (), 4) would have to prove that the repairs needed were caused by potentially mishandling the product, and 5) that my removing the cover somehow caused the refrigerant filter to clog.
He doesn't need to prove anything.

Tom
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Old 24.06.2020, 13:35
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Success!

The seller relinquished. Apparently, my registered letter was enough to make him see clearly. I included an extract of the Swiss Code of Obligations relevant to the situation. He emailed me today giving me times and dates to make the exchange.

Hell of a ride.
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  #78  
Old 24.06.2020, 13:46
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

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After this action the subject is basically closed.
Obviously not. Luckily the OP ignored this.

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Success!

The seller relinquished. Apparently, my registered letter was enough to make him see clearly. I included an extract of the Swiss Code of Obligations relevant to the situation. He emailed me today giving me times and dates to make the exchange.

Hell of a ride.
Well done for your perseverance.

There are too many people on this forum who seem to suggest to always write off any loss so you are out of pocket stating that "This is the way it is done here" - or something equally pathetic.

Let us know of the final outcome. i.e when your cash is back in your pocket.
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Old 29.06.2020, 14:51
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

Final update. Cash in hand. It's over and done!
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  #80  
Old 29.06.2020, 15:15
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Re: Bought a defective appliance used - any recourse?

a better story than Twilight
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