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  #41  
Old 10.07.2020, 09:03
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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That's a little whataboutism, as THAT particular ruling was about banning smoker's lounges, and had nothing to do with smoking in public, open spaces. But in any case, that was nearly 10 years ago. Societies evolve, and I remain hopeful and expect a slow albeit gradual mindset change towards healthier habits.
That's right. If I recall correctly, they specifically stated they had no problems with people smoking in outdoor public spaces as they realised how unpopular it would be yet their proposal was still rejected anyway.
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  #42  
Old 10.07.2020, 10:08
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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No, mate. The hallmark of a democracy is people being able to openly discuss their feelings and opinions in public, and asking their voted representatives to enact laws that cater to the population's needs. Telling people to get used to the status quo or move to another country is rude in the best scenario, and just authoritarian and suppressive of free speech in the worst case.
You too must be alt-left!
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  #43  
Old 10.07.2020, 10:20
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

The ideal would obviously be to have separate smoker and non-smoker bathing areas. In areas with large Muslim populations it may even be an idea to have special Islamic bathing areas were people of that worldview can bathe comfortably, in the same way that there are special nudist bathing areas now.



What I don't find tolerable is having fanatical anti-tobacco (or anti anything else) activists pushing their personal beliefs on everyone else. For instance, I know of a non-profit social club for musicians at which nearly 100% of members are smokers, but they have to go outside to smoke or the club will be fined (this has already happened). How does that make sense? It doesn't. Just one of many good examples of bullies forcing their beliefs on others.

But that is just my humble observation.
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  #44  
Old 10.07.2020, 10:33
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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What I don't find tolerable is having fanatical anti-tobacco (or anti anything else) activists pushing their personal beliefs on everyone else.
I'm not sure if you're being facetious and trying to be funny, or you are really serious. "Anti-tobacco" is not based on a belief; it's a fact: tobacco smoking is very harmful, and second-hand smoke is no less harmful. Why should it be allowed for people to be exposed to harmful fumes to please someone's unnecessary habits?
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  #45  
Old 10.07.2020, 10:47
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

I smoke large Havana's and they rarely take 2 hours to smoke, 30 - 45 minutes top, so maybe a little exaggeration here?

I also smoke in public spaces such as outdoors at restaurants, but am always considerate of which way the wind blows and that it will not disturb others. Which is more than I can say for the majority of cigarette / weed smokers who have little consideration for others and the smell of which I dislike.

If someone asks me politely that it is bothering them, I'll either move if possible or stop smoking. However if the person is rude or belligerent then I'll just ignore them.

It's all about live and let live without causing or being a nuisance to others and looking for compromise. In fact there are many things that bother me in public spaces, screaming babies or children who run riot banging into tables spilling drinks and whose parents just laugh it off! People who speak so loudly you can hear them form the other side of the park or restaurant, or drunks who are very rude.

With an ever increasing population we simply have to be more tolerant and polite before we all turn into grumpy old men!!!
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  #46  
Old 10.07.2020, 11:03
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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Diss is a frii köntrii
I don't think that's the issue here. The Swiss are very proud of their direct democracy and let's face it - Switzerland works (although sometimes despite some the vote results, not because of them).

But, I think the problem comes in that you are so proud of your laws that although you cry "This is a free country", you lose the ability to become "Free thinkers". As I wrote before, we all know what the laws are - it's the common decency that seems to be lacking in the smoking debate.

A man lighting a big cigar next to where a family are having lunch, if told whether he minded doing it somewhere else, he cries "This is my right! - it is allowed!".

How about he thought about the young family eating and before lighting up, he moved, or waited until they had finished eating?"

Of course he wouldn't do that. He knows the laws, he knows his rights.


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Being anal about other people smoking outdoors is mostly an Anglo thing. Sounds like you better get used to it or go home.
My wife, Swiss, normally tells off inconsiderate smokers. She has spent her formative years doing cancer research.

My children are Swiss too. Switzerland is my home too.

I thought this was a "frii köntrii". Does that mean there's freedom of speech?
Should the topic of smoking be off-limits, and if so, why smoking in particular?
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  #47  
Old 10.07.2020, 11:37
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

"Free country" and being considerate to others (even when you're not doing anything forbidden or illegal) are not mutually exclusive.

The "free country" claim doesn't release people from the fact that they are complete a&&holes when they don't have any to give about their fellow women, men and children.

In my personal experience, people who fly the "free country" banner have very usually tried to find a shield to justify their disregard for human decency in the best case, or their ignorance, bigotry, or hate in the worst case.
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  #48  
Old 10.07.2020, 11:39
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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I don't smoke, rarely consume alcohol, skinny dip even less frequently and do my best to live sustainably. Does that give me the right to enforce my beliefs and preferences on others? I don't believe it does. If someone else enjoys it and it has no real impact on me, why should I let it bother me?
.
Second-hand or passive smoking does impact one's health. Now, I can agree occasional passive smoking for short moments is not the end of the word but people seem to complain because of smokers deciding to enjoy their habits in situations when people are exposed for longer.
Imagine you'd take some of the...uhm "tolerances" you propose a bit too far e.g. would you agree someone who drank alcoholic beverages to get in their car and drive? Do you think the current laws are abusive and bullying?
Or, since it's a current problem right now, not respecting social distancing or deciding not to wear a mask in certain situations is also a fundamental right? You know what they say - your rights end where mine begin.....
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  #49  
Old 10.07.2020, 11:51
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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Imagine you'd take some of the...uhm "tolerances" you propose a bit too far e.g. would you agree someone who drank alcoholic beverages to get in their car and drive? Do you think the current laws are abusive and bullying?
I don't think that's the problem. As I wrote in my last post, when there's a law that prohibits something, the Swiss are fine with not doing it (and I say the Swiss as those on this forum who are Swiss are the ones predominantly up in arms over some of the posts on this thread).

The problem comes when something isn't against the law but it would be good to use one's own judgement and moral compass to decide whether a particular activity may annoy others at a particular time and place.

If you think I'm way off track here, then consider why the hell a country needs a "good Samaritan" law? Are peoples' moral compasses so off track that they wouldn't help someone in need without a law telling them to do so?
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  #50  
Old 10.07.2020, 12:04
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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My wife, Swiss, normally tells off inconsiderate smokers. She has spent her formative years doing cancer research.

My children are Swiss too. Switzerland is my home too.

I thought this was a "frii köntrii". Does that mean there's freedom of speech?
Should the topic of smoking be off-limits, and if so, why smoking in particular?
You and your wife are free to complain about it all you like but if they are not breaking the law then it doesn't matter whether you find it inconsiderate or not.
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  #51  
Old 10.07.2020, 12:04
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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If you think I'm way off track here, then consider why the hell a country needs a "good Samaritan" law? Are peoples' moral compasses so off track that they wouldn't help someone in need without a law telling them to do so?
I guess some things are not that obvious to each and all of us... In a way maybe it's a good thing that this law does exist, one cannot excuse some behaviours with "I was scared", "I panicked" etc etc.

Btw, I don't think people's moral compasses are off track. There might be some bad apples like in every country perhaps.
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  #52  
Old 10.07.2020, 12:08
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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You and your wife are free to complain about it all you like but if they are not breaking the law then it doesn't matter whether you find it inconsiderate or not.
Which was kind of my point. People being considerate towards others doesn't come into it.
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  #53  
Old 10.07.2020, 12:17
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

Dont smoke myself, but love the smell of cigars. Once discretely followed a cigar smoker all the way down 5th avenue in NY, just to enjoy the smell of his cigar.

When Im 70 and its too late to get cancer from it, Ill start with cigars myself...
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  #54  
Old 10.07.2020, 12:26
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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Smoking a cigar in a public space is like smoking a nuke.
Fags are bad enough, mostly you can avoid fag smoke but a cigar not so much and don´t forget some of them are simply vile.
If your stogie fell into that category then you have my sympathy.
Yet you are against prohibiting making bikes intentionally noisy, not even in exteme cases.

Interesting ...
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  #55  
Old 10.07.2020, 12:26
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

I don't smoke myself and never did, but generally have a live and let live attitude about it. If people are respectfully doing their thing and the smoke isn't getting in my lungs, face, hair or clothes, I'm Ok with it.

I do think that smoking in a public bathing area is inconsiderate. But in my observation, most tobacco smokers are so used to having warnings droned into them that they do voluntarily act respecfully and it normally isn't an issue. Personally I have a bigger problem with the people smoking cannabis in that respect. Especially in the evening by certain bits of the lake. Many of them think they are so rebellious and hip because they do it and have no consideration whatsoever for those around them.
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Old 10.07.2020, 12:27
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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I'm not sure if you're being facetious and trying to be funny, or you are really serious. "Anti-tobacco" is not based on a belief; it's a fact: tobacco smoking is very harmful, and second-hand smoke is no less harmful. Why should it be allowed for people to be exposed to harmful fumes to please someone's unnecessary habits?
That’s exactly it.
Non smokers have chosen not to smoke but often that choice is removed from them when sitting outside in summer. Inconsiderate smokers (and not all smokers are inconsiderate) are forcing their choice to smoke onto others and that’s where the problem lies.
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Old 10.07.2020, 12:28
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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Second-hand or passive smoking does impact one's health.
Not in the amounts and for the duration people keep complaining about here. And Full Circle is right, this is predominantly an anglo-saxon thing.
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  #58  
Old 10.07.2020, 12:35
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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Just one of many good examples of bullies forcing their beliefs on others.
How hard is it to understand that PEOPLE HAVE HEALTH ISSUES AND YOUR HABIT MAKES THEM SICK. It isn't about pushing a belief, it is a necessity for some.
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  #59  
Old 10.07.2020, 12:43
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

I assume that the people that are fine with smoking in public places are also fine with heavy perfumes, farting and non-use of deodorant, or is that different?
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Old 10.07.2020, 12:46
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Re: Smoking cigars in the bathing area ( on the lake )

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Dont smoke myself, but love the smell of cigars. Once discretely followed a cigar smoker all the way down 5th avenue in NY, just to enjoy the smell of his cigar.

When Im 70 and its too late to get cancer from it, Ill start with cigars myself...
It’s never too late to get cancer from it. You might even get cancer from second hand smoke well before you are 70.

And 70 isn’t old, you could have another 30 years or more. Unless you smoke.
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