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  #61  
Old 17.08.2020, 19:46
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Re: Swiss people. The masters of passive aggressive notes

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Urs Max, could you perhaps post a few links setting out the mindset, the particular segment of womenhood or feminism that bothers you?

This is a genuine question, because when you write about "modern feminist doctrine" and "modern feminists" you seem to be describing a certain attitude to life which I simply don't know and don't understand.
Generally speaking I call radical feminist, and despise them, someone who demands that others change in order to satisfy what female feminists feel entitled to for no other reason than being female.

It's hardly ever about stuff that's difficult, dangerous, or physically straining, only what's easy and financially rewarding. There's barely a feminist who demands 50% women in waste disposal collection, mining, oil drilling, firefighters, construction workers, woodcutters, farming (the jobs on the field done by low-paid foreigners like the Polish, or the illegal Mexicans in the US), and a ton of other hard and physically taxing jobs. No Swiss feminist, modern or otherwise, rallies against women's 50% higher rate of gymi Matura either. It's only when it comes to jobs that are high on the socioeconomic ladder where feminists make demands.

Cases like these demonstrate that for the last 20-30 years feminists haven't been about fairness and against discrimination. They're about pure, ugly, and primitive egotism.

A few bullet points I oppose in the context of the contemporary western world:
- men and women are the same
- women don't lie
- "patriarchy"
- women are victims
- women are suppresssed
- women are suppresssed by men
- gender pay gap (never true and clearly refuted by now. Today it's an outright lie)
- entitlement without duties and other consequences
- "Überhöhung" (vast exaggeration of importance?) of individual achievements and claiming it's a feminist thing when in fact the individual was simply acting for her own interests
- the pathologisation of traditional male behaviour
- PC; a fat person isn't called heavy, the appropriate word is fat

This extends into associated topics like regulating speech, redefining language, cancel culture, and a full host of other topics where a very small but very loud and vocal group tries to force their beliefs onto others.

Consider two non-feminist cases:
----------------------------------
Take Kitter's post above. She's decided to do firefighter stuff and takes the consequences. A feminist would complain about the heavy equipment and demand that lightweight equipment for females be developed. Instead Kitter accepts the situation and makes the best of it. She walks the walk, kudos.

Take Jennifer Lawrence (the actress, Hunger Games). Apparently she discovered at some point in her career that she was underpaid. A feminist JL would complain about oppression by the evil male-dominated industry and launch some kind of public campaign. Instead she accepted that it's a capitalistic industry and took matters in her own hands, negotioated better afterwards and became her own producer. Now it's her making the decisions - however she also takes the associated risks (presumably), something modern feminists wouldn't ever do. There are many other cases like hers.

Both are examples of competence, they stand on their own and validate themselves by their own merit. Well done.
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  #62  
Old 17.08.2020, 22:21
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Re: Swiss people. The masters of passive aggressive notes

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I cannot think of any girl or woman I've met in the past few decades, of any persuasion, (progressive, liberal, conservative, egalitarian, alternative, integrated, serious, wild, boring, scathing, educated, illiterate, religious, anarchistic, devoted, businesswoman, employee, unemployed, homeless, married, single, polyamorous, lesbian or hetera, mother or not, aged 10 to 100, in Europe or elsewhere) who would rather paint herself as the victim of real or imaginary patriarchy, than stand up for herself.

I'm not saying you haven't encountered such women. Nor am I saying there aren't issues around gender and sex. But since you repeatedly refer to that view on life, and I don't know who those women are, perhaps I'd better be able to understand who/what you mean, were you to post some links to women who, in your opinion, are representatives of what you mean by "modern feminism" or a charta which sets out their "modern feminist doctrine".
These aren't my claims, feel free to inform yourself, Wiki provides a good entry point despite its inherent problems.

Women's victimhood is central to today's feminism.

The condensed version goes like:
The imaginary patriarchy supposedly suppresses women. Therefore it's oppressors against oppressed, men against women, perpetrators against victims. That means men are evil and women are good, angelic even. That's why women must be believed, always, as supposed victims they are given the moral upper hand and in turn validates outrage, removes the need for dialogue to establish common ground, and fosters cancel culture. After all, just like only a Nazi would stand up for other Nazis, only a sexist would argue against canceling sexists. Therefore it's safe to remove them all.

Take these women (TA article in German, screenies with the translation by deepl below). Only the victims are given a voice, and not a single bit is questioned - women never lie so there's no reason to second-guess. And you'll be hard pressed to see a similar article featuring men, after all the perpetrators don't deserve any attention or public space at all. The best you're likely to find is an article on Covid where the majority happens to be male.

The women are presented as victims of discrimination, sexism, catcalling, and whatnot. Instead of addressing the problem in situ and talking to the others, which btw might reveal that the women's assumptions to be unfounded, they complain afterwards in a newspaper where all statements are accepted as the gospel truth.

Let's consider Fabienne's statements. In the absence of additional information, age roughly goes along with higher roles, that's why people usually address the older/oldest in a group. In a team of two there's a better than 50/50 chance that the other is older than 28, but that possibility doesn't even cross her mind. Instead people are expected to be mindreaders and immediately know that she has the lead. And how does that go along with her claim that she's assigned certain types of tasks, I would expect a teamleader to decide exactly that. Maybe she's not that much of a leader and she wasn't given that position again? The same kind of contradiction hides in the WC (loo) stuff where she claims that she doesn't want anything special yet complains about not getting just that. And the statement that she's less strong than the men is quite probably correct considering her picture, also see Eva's remark on lifting 120-kg loads.

And everything's anonymous and behind the alleged perpetrator's backs, feel free to tell me again that they stand up for themselves.

The translation-screenies:
http://www.youscreen.de/suyaarceu59.jpg
http://www.youscreen.de/xwyeotkem64.jpg
http://www.youscreen.de/rzetraatm77.jpg
http://www.youscreen.de/gmmyjjwio92.jpg
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  #63  
Old 17.08.2020, 23:22
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Re: Swiss people. The masters of passive aggressive notes

I still get cat called or even touched without my consent. Small mercy of having gained a lot of weight was that this pretty much stopped but if I do things like stand up to people being racist, they will always tell me that I should not say anything because I am fat. Not sure what one has to do with the other but being reduced to one's appearance is a shitty reality.

As for unequal pay, there too I have concrete examples of women doing the same job and sometimes even with better qualifications than their male colleague earning less money.

The inequality thing goes in both directions: men who want to be Kindergarten teachers are eyed with suspicion and I have no knowledge of any male florists or podologists. When I tell people I am in the local fire brigade, some literally say "are women allowed to do that?!". There are even some dudes within our station that think exactly like that and think it's funny to make crude jokes or show me inappropriate videos to try and shock me. Once, it was a video of a range of adult toys and I just glanced at it and said "ah, yes, seen plenty real ones that size, nothing special, but it looks like you never have, otherwise you wouldn't be so fascinated by the video". Dude went red, mates sniggered, no more videos were shown by that particular section.

It's annoying and I am incredibly tired of it after the roughly 27 years of my life of dealing with this sh*t. But I will not give them the satisfaction of rising to their pathetic, insecure and frankly desperate attempt of "putting me in my place". At my old workplace, it ranged from subtle things like expecting the only female in the room to be the one getting coffee at client meetings, no matter how senior she was to initially spending more time discussing a female applicant's photograph than the actual CV it came with.

There is a real problem and when you challenge these things, you get told to "not be so uptight" or to "have a sense of humour". Well, we are not laughing and if we are, it is a sardonic grin that we have mastered because telling the dinosaurs how we really feel would result in the usual "she is overreacting" or "boy, what a ball buster" comments. My latest strategy when someone makes a more or less veiled sexist, homophobic, racist or other out of order quip: I look at them with my most clueless face and say "sorry, I don't get it, can you please explain?". I love watching them squirm.

Yes, there's a few overzealous feminists but they are still outnumbered by men who have zero intention of truly sharing the space at their table or letting women access into their circle based on the same criteria - they have to do better than the men in order to get the same or less. So far, I've also not once heard of a man being asked about his family planning during a job interview but every single one of my female friends has at one point got a question like that. Yes, biology, Yadda Yadda but either there is equality or there isn't.

The money-focused view of the OP on that other thread kind of illustrates how messed up it is - a child and it's mother is being equated to a certain cost. Never mind them being human beings, we want numbers. Repulsive.
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  #64  
Old 18.08.2020, 18:00
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Re: Swiss people. The masters of passive aggressive notes

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The money-focused view of the OP on that other thread kind of illustrates how messed up it is - a child and it's mother is being equated to a certain cost. Never mind them being human beings, we want numbers. Repulsive.
Nice! I wish I'd been a fly on the wall during those encounters
This what I see "real" feminism, this is empowerment. Part of it.

However it's quite unfair, to phrase it politely, to call considering the monetary aspect of a relationship a mess, given that women do the same. Women marry sideways or up on the socioeconomic ladder, it's part of the reason why women high up the hierarchy have so much trouble finding a "suitable" man. You can't ignore female behavior and simultaneously point the finger at men who do basically the same.

Further, it's extremely rare for a woman to mate with a man considerably shorter than her. The clear majority will not accept a man who is shorter than them, and the maximum difference in the "wrong" direction accepted by the remainder (at least if the visual impression is the first) seems to be around 5cm (in the west).
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Old 18.08.2020, 22:42
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Re: Swiss people. The masters of passive aggressive notes

The shortest man in my extended family is 5'11"/1.80m. In my immediate family, it's 6'1"/1.85m. Half of them played rugby. The other half did some other sport that is conducive to developing broad shoulders. The shorter/same height as me boyfriends that I had got really defensive around them. I would also feel protective of a shorter guy unless he was a professional Krav Maga instructor or similarly badass character.

I have also dated men who were financially worse off, that doesn't really bother me, after all, if I want to do certain things and the only way for him to afford it is if I pay, so be it. I enjoy good company more than worrying about keeping a tally of expenses. This is also why I should not be in charge of the money because I am too generous. What I would not be ok with is for him to incur unnecessary expenses, such as getting fines for speeding or being careless with belongings.

Finally, here's what bothers me about the financial emphasis: if you are worried about the cost, you do everything in your power to avoid it. By focusing on how much cost is incurred by the mother choosing not to abort the child that you helped create, you are placing the blame on her alone and painting yourself as a victim. If you choose your partner poorly AND want to enjoy the full benefits of a (hopefully!) monogamous relationship, then you really only have yourself to blame. You do not get to have your cake and eat it.
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Old 19.08.2020, 01:01
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Re: Swiss people. The masters of passive aggressive notes

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The shortest man in my extended family is 5'11"/1.80m. In my immediate family, it's 6'1"/1.85m. Half of them played rugby. The other half did some other sport that is conducive to developing broad shoulders. The shorter/same height as me boyfriends that I had got really defensive around them. I would also feel protective of a shorter guy unless he was a professional Krav Maga instructor or similarly badass character.

I have also dated men who were financially worse off, that doesn't really bother me, after all, if I want to do certain things and the only way for him to afford it is if I pay, so be it. I enjoy good company more than worrying about keeping a tally of expenses. This is also why I should not be in charge of the money because I am too generous. What I would not be ok with is for him to incur unnecessary expenses, such as getting fines for speeding or being careless with belongings.

Finally, here's what bothers me about the financial emphasis: if you are worried about the cost, you do everything in your power to avoid it. By focusing on how much cost is incurred by the mother choosing not to abort the child that you helped create, you are placing the blame on her alone and painting yourself as a victim. If you choose your partner poorly AND want to enjoy the full benefits of a (hopefully!) monogamous relationship, then you really only have yourself to blame. You do not get to have your cake and eat it.
You're trying to disprove a generalisation with individual cases, unfortunately it doesn't work this way. Trying to turn it into a personal thing isn't helpful either - the category women is distinct from the person that is you.

Stating facts (Ok, what I believe to be fact) is entirely different from putting blame, you're misinterpreting. Facts stand for themselves, they can be disproven. Blame on the other hand is a moral term, as well as victimhood, a category I didn't even touch in passing. Actually I prefer to leave that to the modern feminists, it appears to be just about the only base they have for their hogwash.
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  #67  
Old 19.08.2020, 07:02
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Re: Swiss people. The masters of passive aggressive notes

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It's annoying and I am incredibly tired of it after the roughly 27 years of my life of dealing with this sh*t. But I will not give them the satisfaction of rising to their pathetic, insecure and frankly desperate attempt of "putting me in my place". At my old workplace, it ranged from subtle things like expecting the only female in the room to be the one getting coffee at client meetings, no matter how senior she was to initially spending more time discussing a female applicant's photograph than the actual CV it came with.

There is a real problem and when you challenge these things, you get told to "not be so uptight" or to "have a sense of humour". Well, we are not laughing and if we are, it is a sardonic grin that we have mastered because telling the dinosaurs how we really feel would result in the usual "she is overreacting" or "boy, what a ball buster" comments. My latest strategy when someone makes a more or less veiled sexist, homophobic, racist or other out of order quip: I look at them with my most clueless face and say "sorry, I don't get it, can you please explain?". I love watching them squirm.
.
This.

Btw, tell them to develop their sense of humour and to laugh at themselves too.
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Old 19.08.2020, 23:43
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Re: Swiss people. The masters of passive aggressive notes

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You're trying to disprove a generalisation with individual cases, unfortunately it doesn't work this way. Trying to turn it into a personal thing isn't helpful either - the category women is distinct from the person that is you.

Stating facts (Ok, what I believe to be fact) is entirely different from putting blame, you're misinterpreting. Facts stand for themselves, they can be disproven. Blame on the other hand is a moral term, as well as victimhood, a category I didn't even touch in passing. Actually I prefer to leave that to the modern feminists, it appears to be just about the only base they have for their hogwash.
Generalisation: all ravens are purple. One black raven is enough to disprove that.

Hogwash? Er... I‘m tempted to use equally nasty words here, but then there‘d be no chance of reaching you. Given your level of resentment, I fear there is none anyway. „Modern feminists“ are not only self-proclaimed victims but also people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg. If you find the Büezer article ridiculous, read up on the story of Prix Courage winner Natalie Urwyler, an anesthesiologist who suffered a miscarriage while on call. Or does the name Larry Nassar ring a bell? Or did you ever hear of stories like the following? https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...ect-themselves There are more things in heaven and on earth... It‘s not all black and white and not all modern feminists are the idiots you make them out to be. Of course it would be neat if we didn‘t need feminism any more, but there it is: we do.

PS to the OP: sorry this got so off topic. I resolve to let it go.

Last edited by missenglish; 20.08.2020 at 00:07.
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