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Old 18.08.2020, 10:29
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Re: 5G tower on roof

As Caleb and others have said, you won't find a lot of hard scientific "fact" proving the case either way.


However, the BAG has an outstanding volume of summaries on the effects of various types of non ionising radiation. You'll find them here:


https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...licht/emf.html


Under "telecommunications" there's a section for mobile phones, though it doesn't go that much into 5G.


BAFU also has an excellent selection of literature in English, including a more detailed report on 5G.


https://www.bafu.admin.ch/bafu/en/ho...ectrosmog.html


The section specific to base stations is only in German/French


https://www.bafu.admin.ch/bafu/de/ho...og-quelle.html


You can view the location of antennas at:


https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/en/...nsmitters.html


In case that's not enough, more information on 5G also at OFCOM:


https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/en/...owards-5G.html
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Old 18.08.2020, 10:49
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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As Caleb and others have said, you won't find any hard scientific "fact" proving sensitivity exists

...
FTFY

For example, every double blind trial for "Electromagnetic hypersensitivity" has failed.

A good read... https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/...40-020-00602-0

I apprenticed then worked as a radio+radar engineer for many years...
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Old 18.08.2020, 11:55
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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does anyone have access or links to these studies/regulations in Zurich. The fact that they are hard to find, begins the questioning for me.
It's not a cantonal matter, but a federal one. Here you can find the summary together with the report of the working group on the topic and the FAQs:
https://www.bafu.admin.ch/bafu/de/ho...strahlung.html
unfortunately there is no English version.

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Also who in CH enforces these regulations.
BAG, through the authorization process, inspections and audits. Every device has a ton of paperwork, from design plans to commissioning measurements.

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If it was all done officially and properly (I'm not suggesting it wasn't), there should be a clear accessible paper trail.
There is, it's usually clear, it's not accessible because it contains proprietary and/or sensitive information. It's like a train's maintenance record or the internal periodic evaluation of a surgeon, it's not public and it doesn't have to be - see below.

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The best found above was an exclusion zone for workers near the tower of 10 m when energized. As I stated, most of our flat is <10 m away.
You don't need design plans to know about the exclusion zone: if there is one, it must be clearly marked, or the roof must be made unaccessible e.g. by locking the doors. The point is, you can still learn about the exclusion zone and other aspects, but your safety is usually ensured by giving you other types of communication - think of the road traffic signs.
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Old 18.08.2020, 12:19
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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It's not a cantonal matter, but a federal one. Here you can find the summary together with the report of the working group on the topic and the FAQs:
https://www.bafu.admin.ch/bafu/de/ho...strahlung.html
unfortunately there is no English version.


BAG, through the authorization process, inspections and audits. Every device has a ton of paperwork, from design plans to commissioning measurements.


There is, it's usually clear, it's not accessible because it contains proprietary and/or sensitive information. It's like a train's maintenance record or the internal periodic evaluation of a surgeon, it's not public and it doesn't have to be - see below.


You don't need design plans to know about the exclusion zone: if there is one, it must be clearly marked, or the roof must be made unaccessible e.g. by locking the doors. The point is, you can still learn about the exclusion zone and other aspects, but your safety is usually ensured by giving you other types of communication - think of the road traffic signs.



Thanks Venetian - exactly the helpful information I was looking for!


I do trust the Swiss Bureaucracy, but I don't trust my landlord :P


I have a feeling they found a loop hole or something, because again, the transmitter will be so close. I can almost swing a hockey stick or golf club and hit it.



I personally am just a bit concerned whenever I'm that close to a microwave source, so I would like to see that the due diligence has been done. As per the exclusion zone: if it follows most of the literature I've found - most of our flat will be within the exclusion zone.
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Old 18.08.2020, 12:29
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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<yawn> got wifi in your appartment? you should be more worried about that then 5g

Of course, there's tons of radiation around day to day.



Just like there's tons of poisons which can be ingested. All depends on the strength.


Yes, I have a wifi device, it's output is about 1 watt, and it's range is about 10 m.


I also have a microwave oven it's output is 700 watts, and it has a faraday cage to protect anyone close by. hmmm still yawning?


I can only assume that the 5G tower on the roof will be a slightly more powerful than my 1 W wifi device assuming it will be transmitting and receiving over a few square kilometers - and it's closer than 10 m to my living area.
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Old 18.08.2020, 12:48
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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Also some backing if we can push for a rent reduction :P as I'm sure the building owners will be collecting some rent on the tower, on our roof
This might be the most reasonable part because everything depends on perceptions and personal opinions, truth and facts are optional. All you have to argue is that lots of people believe 5G antennas are bad for health, therefore if you leave no one is going to rent that apartment unless there's a nice rebate in the price.

It doesn't matter if 5G antennas are harmless. As long as a significant part of the population believes they're bad, the apartment is less appealing in comparison to similar ones. Not so different to an old bathtub or a bright orange kitchen top, I can tell they're ugly and no facts are needed to support my opinion.
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Old 18.08.2020, 12:55
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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This might be the most reasonable part because everything depends on perceptions and personal opinions, truth and facts are optional. All you have to argue is that lots of people believe 5G antennas are bad for health, therefore if you leave no one is going to rent that apartment unless there's a nice rebate in the price.

It doesn't matter if 5G antennas are harmless. As long as a significant part of the population believes they're bad, the apartment is less appealing in comparison to similar ones. Not so different to an old bathtub or a bright orange kitchen top, I can tell they're ugly and no facts are needed to support my opinion.



Interesting take on it! thanks Axa


Rent reduction has been tough with our flat providers, they are pretty legally savvy and i feel we get screwed over a lot.



Wondering if it was time to join a Mieterverband if it was worth the money.



It will definitely be an eyesore, affecting the entire balcony view - but generally I'm not the type to fuss about appearance.



On the other hand, if I'm always overheating and feverish in my own home, and perhaps even the gonad can't cool down enough to spawn offspring - I'm a bit more worried.
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Old 18.08.2020, 13:00
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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Perhaps a re-phrasing would be in order
Yes, Tom, I'm aware that EMF is a physical phenomenon. Although I have a degree in Physics, I also have apparently poor writen English skills. What I meant in that one sentence is that placebo has powerful results, and we shouldn't doubt that individuals may feel the effects of EMF (albeit non ionizing in low doses) or "alternative medicine" whether the body should be able to feel it or not. Believing it does oftentimes is all it takes to actually feel something. Well, that's what I meant, anyhow.

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I don't think this is a very good generalization
I agree. All generalizations are terrible.

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Let's do a little grade school lesson
Introducing sarcastic and patronizing comments in a civilized discussion has sometimes unpleasant side effects. I'm a pathetic online fighter, but I don't want to let that slide that easily.

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What is the cooking wavelengths of a microwave oven? Would you stand directly in front of an operating microwave oven missing it's door screen?
About 30cm. It's "Its door screen".

No, I wouldn't. A microwave oven is between 1000W and 1500W (BTW, that's anywhere 10x to 15x the power of a microwave dish), and assuming that 50% of the beam that aims towards the center of the oven escape through the open door, you would get 1250W in your general direction. So if you stand just in front of the oven, the area between your nipples and your knees would get over 1000W distributed over your exposed surface, minus whatever's absorbed by your clothes...let's assume it's around 750W. That's about 75 times the threshold of dangerous (which they say is around 10W m2). Jee, actually the reflection off the floor may be enough to cook your bum.

By the way, there are lethal doses of widely accepted non dangerous radiation, e.g. IR in enough quantity will easily burn your skin, as a lamp would through heat transmitted via radiation. Although not naturally occurring on Earth, a powerful magnet (over 500'000 T or so) would also be lethal.

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(I hope you're not a real physicist :P although a bit of the clueless writing style does lend to a professional scientist)
Ad hominem. Not the best way to show class, Chemmie. Yes, I'm a real physicist. I haven't worked in the field in 25 years, but I remain sort of informed, and I still have access to Journals through my University.
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  #29  
Old 18.08.2020, 13:17
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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Yes, Tom, I'm aware that EMF is a physical phenomenon. Although I have a degree in Physics, I also have apparently poor writen English skills. What I meant in that one sentence is that placebo has powerful results, and we shouldn't doubt that individuals may feel the effects of EMF (albeit non ionizing in low doses) or "alternative medicine" whether the body should be able to feel it or not. Believing it does oftentimes is all it takes to actually feel something. Well, that's what I meant, anyhow.



I agree. All generalizations are terrible.



Introducing sarcastic and patronizing comments in a civilized discussion has sometimes unpleasant side effects. I'm a pathetic online fighter, but I don't want to let that slide that easily.



About 30cm. It's "Its door screen".

No, I wouldn't. A microwave oven is between 1000W and 1500W (BTW, that's anywhere 10x to 15x the power of a microwave dish), and assuming that 50% of the beam that aims towards the center of the oven escape through the open door, you would get 1250W in your general direction. So if you stand just in front of the oven, the area between your nipples and your knees would get over 1000W distributed over your exposed surface, minus whatever's absorbed by your clothes...let's assume it's around 750W. That's about 75 times the threshold of dangerous (which they say is around 10W m2). Jee, actually the reflection off the floor may be enough to cook your bum.

By the way, there are lethal doses of widely accepted non dangerous radiation, e.g. IR in enough quantity will easily burn your skin, as a lamp would through heat transmitted via radiation. Although not naturally occurring on Earth, a powerful magnet (over 500'000 T or so) would also be lethal.



Ad hominem. Way to show some class, Chemmie. Yes, I'm a real physicist. I haven't worked in the field in 25 years, but I remain sort of informed, and I still have access to Journals through my University.



Thanks for the fight


I just took the comment that 'radiowaves-> Vis can't hurt you' to be a bit irresponsible. Especially considering the initial topic (High power transmitter in close vicinity).



I do appreciate the oven calculation though - this is interesting. If I could get a similar calculation with the 5G tower (given an assumed power and angle output) it would be very beneficial to me. I would like to do a few a few more calculations to see where in my flat (if any) would exceed the 10W m2 threshold.


Apologies for the low class hit. It was late and I got a bit irritated trying to get technical/logical information and ending up with a few comments reading along the lines of: "We need to educate these tinfoil hat people with science!"
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Old 18.08.2020, 13:45
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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...

I do appreciate the oven calculation though - this is interesting. If I could get a similar calculation with the 5G tower (given an assumed power and angle output) it would be very beneficial to me. I would like to do a few a few more calculations to see where in my flat (if any) would exceed the 10W m2 threshold.
...
5G base station power is low (maybe 120W max for the largest) which is a fraction of a microwave.
This is why you need to many of them.

And it's far further away than your microwave.
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Old 18.08.2020, 13:51
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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FTFY
For example, every double blind trial for "Electromagnetic hypersensitivity" has failed.

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If you are generally not sensitive to these things I don't think you will be to this.

I unfortunately am very much so. If I use my handy as hotspot, I get very sick very quickly (minutes). BUT: Already when putting the handy in the next room, I can handle it.
Do you need spectacles perhaps? Looking at a small screen with bad eyesight can make you feel sick.
Putting the handy in the next room of course solves this problem too.


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I apprenticed then worked as a radio+radar engineer for many years...
In the past I've spent a fair bit of time in and around anechoic chambers with plenty of copper tape and beryllium copper profile strip trying to get products to to get through EMC tests so I know a little about EMF too.
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Old 18.08.2020, 13:53
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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5G base station power is low (maybe 120W max for the largest) which is a fraction of a microwave.
This is why you need to many of them.

And it's far further away than your microwave.



Thanks - I didn't realize that it was such low power. Are you sure about that?



I'm seeing figures exponentially larger than that.


In my case, the transmitter will be closer to flat inhabitants than the microwave for more than half of the flat. (And of course the microwave is shielded and only runs a few mins per day).
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Old 18.08.2020, 14:18
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Re: 5G tower on roof

If you are worried that a mistake was made and your flat gets irradiated too much you can ask for certified measurements and compare them with legal exposure limits. If a mistake was made in the construction and authorization paperwork, that would be the way to spot it. Of course, this only works when the antenna is operating.

Or, if you want to be proactive, you can gently tell your landlord that you are a bit worried about this facility above your head and you would like to be reassured by seeing at least the official authorization and declaration of conformity. I'm not sure he's legally obliged to show you the papers but I think at least to see the institutional Bewilligung would be a fair request.

Be sure you have a cooperative, non-belligerant attitude when asking stuff to the landlord, the topic has driven some people crazy and I could understand if the landlord was a bit hesitant to start this discussion.
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Old 18.08.2020, 14:24
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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Thanks for the fight


I just took the comment that 'radiowaves-> Vis can't hurt you' to be a bit irresponsible.
If you stand next to a high powered radio transmitter, you might get a burn. As gbn points out, the power of these things isn't that high. Your roof might get 0.01°C warmer. On that basis - it can't hurt you.
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Old 18.08.2020, 14:36
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Re: 5G tower on roof

Regarding the experiment of crunching numbers for a 5G MIMO array you can refer to this post which has both the math and good examples: https://www.grandmetric.com/2019/03/...ues-explained/


It is a very worthwhile read (you've probably read it as its a popular piece used for a quick explanation).



You can see there the 120W number for a 5G array described, you can also use the same calculations to come up with a power of 5dBm at 10m from a 120W array (highly unlikely your array is 120W) at ~3 milliwatts. Note the loss over distance: just add 1m of distance and the power goes to ~2 milliwatts. As noted in the article, a mobile phone transmitting by your head will put out maximum 200 milliwatts... that's almost two orders of magnitude more power than 10m from a massive 5G array.



More importantly you can read about what the directional gain is, and why underneath an antenna you are not likely receiving anywhere near the total power of an array.
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Old 18.08.2020, 14:59
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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If you are worried that a mistake was made and your flat gets irradiated too much you can ask for certified measurements and compare them with legal exposure limits. If a mistake was made in the construction and authorization paperwork, that would be the way to spot it. Of course, this only works when the antenna is operating.

Or, if you want to be proactive, you can gently tell your landlord that you are a bit worried about this facility above your head and you would like to be reassured by seeing at least the official authorization and declaration of conformity. I'm not sure he's legally obliged to show you the papers but I think at least to see the institutional Bewilligung would be a fair request.

Be sure you have a cooperative, non-belligerant attitude when asking stuff to the landlord, the topic has driven some people crazy and I could understand if the landlord was a bit hesitant to start this discussion.
I will definite do this. I'm always diplomatic with the landlords, unlike the SO who would was raging yesterday as we had no hot water :P


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Regarding the experiment of crunching numbers for a 5G MIMO array you can refer to this post which has both the math and good examples: https://www.grandmetric.com/2019/03/...ues-explained/


It is a very worthwhile read (you've probably read it as its a popular piece used for a quick explanation).



You can see there the 120W number for a 5G array described, you can also use the same calculations to come up with a power of 5dBm at 10m from a 120W array (highly unlikely your array is 120W) at ~3 milliwatts. Note the loss over distance: just add 1m of distance and the power goes to ~2 milliwatts. As noted in the article, a mobile phone transmitting by your head will put out maximum 200 milliwatts... that's almost two orders of magnitude more power than 10m from a massive 5G array.



More importantly you can read about what the directional gain is, and why underneath an antenna you are not likely receiving anywhere near the total power of an array.
Very interesting!

(edit: I do question the author's use of Okumura/Hata for near-field calculations, their empirical data fits for >1 km, and there are significant differences in the near-field. A quick look at some NF models in literature, the power is well over 10 watts!!!)

This definitely is what I needed. Honestly, a bit shocking that a massive 5G array is 2 orders less powerful than my mobile's max. The angles are great as well, although the 120 isn't going to protect the balcony area in any direction.

Put's me at ease, but will see when it is installed (most likely next year). Can now plan a contingency move out if necessary.
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Old 18.08.2020, 15:42
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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I just took the comment that 'radiowaves-> Vis can't hurt you' to be a bit irresponsible. Especially considering the initial topic (High power transmitter in close vicinity).
I understand, there was a mismatch between your expectation of power of the antenna (as you said "high power"), and mine. I mentioned that a microwave dish has a power of ~100W (I said that it's 10x to 15x less powerfull than a 1000W to 1500W microwave oven), and I expected (didn't know exactly) the power consumption of a 5G antenna to be in the same order of magnitude: anywhere between 100W and 500W. At these levels, for all radiation above 10 Mhz, the penetration into tissue decays rapidly and it means that it potentially affects the skin only, and only in the form of heat. Although the antenna is less than 5m from inhabitants of the flat, the temperature increase (as NotAllThere pointed out) would be negligible.

Like someone already mentioned, the main exposure to EMF comes from the handheld device. Mega interesting read in this paper, written in Switzerland (unfortunately it doesn't include mm wave in the calculations).
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Old 18.08.2020, 15:54
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Re: 5G tower on roof

If you're really worried, you can tempest-shield your apartment.


AFAIK, copper-mats are used for professional shielding, not tin-foil.


Just need to cover walls, floors and ceilings with it. And of course the windows, unless you get the ones with specially metalized panes...


And your own mobile phone will stop working, too, of course. And you can't freeload on the neighbor's wifi anymore either.


So, I'd just shield the bedroom(s).
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Old 18.08.2020, 16:00
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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If you're really worried, you can tempest-shield your apartment.


AFAIK, copper-mats are used for professional shielding, not tin-foil.


Just need to cover walls, floors and ceilings with it. And of course the windows, unless you get the ones with specially metalized panes...


And your own mobile phone will stop working, too, of course. And you can't freeload on the neighbor's wifi anymore either.


So, I'd just shield the bedroom(s).
There's also the balcony/terrace - will have to install shades!

Honestly, my best solution would just be to install it on a mast with a good 10 m extra height. Just so it isn't transmitting right into my face!
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Old 18.08.2020, 16:24
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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There's also the balcony/terrace - will have to install shades!

Honestly, my best solution would just be to install it on a mast with a good 10 m extra height. Just so it isn't transmitting right into my face!
Yep make your apartment into a Faraday cage and it should keep the transmissions down. If you want to keep using your phone you might be best served installing the cage around the mast itself.
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