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Old 21.08.2020, 23:31
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Re: 5G tower on roof

As a former NiS (nicht ionisierende Strahlung) specialist, todays radio planner, I can shortly explain the process. When a location defined as a possible candidate, radio planers decide the directions, antennas, power, which bands they want to use etc. and this comes to a NIS specialist for analysis.

Then the specialist goes out and measure height of all the highest windows of near buildings. With the help of GIS (maps) you can find out the distance between antenna and the near buildings and create a closed coordination system with the antenna mast in the center. x,y,z

There are special tools where you can give all these coordinates and all the configuration provided (power, antenna etc.) and you get a field strength for each so called OMEN (Orte mit empfindlicher Nutzung).

If it’s only low band (until 900Mhz), the limit is 4V/m, if only high band, 6 V/m, and if both (most cases) 5V/m. These limits are extremely low comparing with other countries.

If calculated values are lower than the limit, it is easy, we increase the power As much as possible and everyone is happy. If the values are higher than limit, we have to reduce the power they have, change the tilting or the direction, or even the location of the mast.

In some cases, there can be no near building and we can have a lot power but then you can be over limit on the rooftop (the limits are different for the places where people spend no or less time like rooftop or parking lot.) Then we suggest to block the entrance of the roof. Sometimes they accept sometimes not.

Or in some other cases where there is tiled roof (beton is good, tile is bad) with someone living just under it. So it is not higher limits anymore and it can quickly cause problems. If they cannot find any other place and if they really need it there, then they shield the roof with a protection. It is extremely costly.

At the end there will be a location datasheet with all this infos and maps and plans etc. and this must be proved by officials. There are also measurement part of this story but it got enough long. If you would like to check it out, send me your not so precise location and I can take a look.
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  #62  
Old 01.09.2020, 16:31
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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5G base station power is low (maybe 120W max for the largest) which is a fraction of a microwave.
This is why you need to many of them.

And it's far further away than your microwave.
There will be 6 Antennas on my roof ranging in power from 350-980 W. Still very much a concerning power level in my opinion.


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….

If it’s only low band (until 900Mhz), the limit is 4V/m, if only high band, 6 V/m, and if both (most cases) 5V/m. These limits are extremely low comparing with other countries.
….

The 5G antenna bands will be 700-3600 MHZ, looks like the electric field strength is around 15 V/m
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Old 01.09.2020, 22:36
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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The 5G antenna bands will be 700-3600 MHZ, looks like the electric field strength is around 15 V/m
Chemmie, a 15 V/m electric field is very weak, it's equivalent to a low power kitchen appliance. If that's the case, considering your roof is probably made of reinforced concrete (and these waves are emitted in a pretty narrow beam, parallel to the ground), it is the equivalent of it not even being there in the room right underneath it.

Edit: just found this quick reference guide for a few electric fields at home: https://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/Wh...en/index3.html
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  #64  
Old 02.09.2020, 12:37
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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Chemmie, a 15 V/m electric field is very weak, it's equivalent to a low power kitchen appliance. If that's the case, considering your roof is probably made of reinforced concrete (and these waves are emitted in a pretty narrow beam, parallel to the ground), it is the equivalent of it not even being there in the room right underneath it.

Edit: just found this quick reference guide for a few electric fields at home: https://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/Wh...en/index3.html



Well the 15 w/m is in direct line of sight. And of course your link shows values at 30 cm, with most of those appliances, one does not constantly stay at 30 cm distance from.




As was posted above, the limits in Switzerland for are ~5 V/m. So my question again is what steps can I take to get this remedied.


Your link, although interesting, does not address the actual regulations and rules in Switzerland, so essentially useless for my inquiry.

Last edited by Chemmie; 02.09.2020 at 15:40. Reason: Typo V/m no W/m
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Old 02.09.2020, 15:02
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Re: 5G tower on roof

I apologize, as I don't understand what you mean. I mentioned that the 15 V/m is a very weak electric field, comparable to very small, unshielded kitchen appliances. You are correct, small or not, the field is not a concern if you're only standing in front of it for longer periods of time (as you would, sleeping under an antenna), but the power decreases exponentially with distance.

On a side note, we are mixing V/m (which is a good way to measure variable radio signals at the non-thermal levels) with W/m2, which is not a great way to measure exposure. The reason is that W/m2 is a measurement designed to measure heating averaged out over time. Your 15 V/m are equivalent to ~0.5 W/m2.
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Old 02.09.2020, 15:40
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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I apologize, as I don't understand what you mean. I mentioned that the 15 V/m is a very weak electric field, comparable to very small, unshielded kitchen appliances. You are correct, small or not, the field is not a concern if you're only standing in front of it for longer periods of time (as you would, sleeping under an antenna), but the power decreases exponentially with distance.

On a side note, we are mixing V/m (which is a good way to measure variable radio signals at the non-thermal levels) with W/m2, which is not a great way to measure exposure. The reason is that W/m2 is a measurement designed to measure heating averaged out over time. Your 15 V/m are equivalent to ~0.5 W/m2.
Thanks for catching that, was a typo. I meant V/m (as in regulation ~5 V/m), ninja edit.


I'm not against 5G, not scared of it. I am just concerned that the engineering study was done properly (I noticed 3-4 points of concern). Moreover, the reply from the governing body, has recommendations, which I want to make sure are covered. Unfortunately, my technical German is lacking in such official documents. Also I don't know the course of action: if I need to lawyer up, email or call BAFU (or Bauamp?), raise the 5000k to protest the tower, talk to my Landlord, join a Mietverband etc.

The answer from Subwoofer is the direction I'm looking for. It follows the documents I have received from BAFU and Swisscom.

Again some of the replies in the thread seem to take a defensive stance - like I'm some sort of anti-5G hippy. I was once a scientist/engineer, my partner is an engineer, we are just making sure that things are done properly.

I do appreciate the time you take to reply and give input though, keep this thread alive to see what advice I can get.
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  #67  
Old 02.09.2020, 15:52
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Re: 5G tower on roof

I don't get the impression that you're either irrational or against 5G in any way. It seems to me we're having a completely rational, technical conversation. Unfortunately I only have theoretical knowledge of the topic, and can only comment on the facts related or studied by physics. Both engineering and biological aspects escape me.
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Old 03.09.2020, 10:16
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Re: 5G tower on roof

I taught a unit on electrosmog to final year gymi students for about six years - fascinating topic and my job as as the biochemist was to link between the physics and biology teachers.
Dealing with the units is a nightmare . The telecom engineers are interested in signal strength, the biologists in effects that are not well documented and controversial, with the for and against camps talking totally past each other.
In general, there is less concern about the transmitting antenna due to the distance argument. The actual transmitter should never be a golf clubs length away from your flat . However transmitting antenna are a visible focal point and the placement of which is something the average person can influence - they cannot stop the tide of new mobile phones.
Most health concerns are about the use of the mobile phone itself which is placed close to the human brain - hence the publication of SAR values for phones

SAR values estimate the energy absorbed by the brain - the assumption being that increased energy means increased risk.

AFAIK, the swiss standards are relatively stringent- if you antenna does not meet them, the town council should be doing something about it.
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Old 03.09.2020, 10:36
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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In general, there is less concern about the transmitting antenna due to the distance argument. The actual transmitter should never be a golf clubs length away from your flat . However transmitting antenna are a visible focal point and the placement of which is something the average person can influence - they cannot stop the tide of new mobile phones.
....
It's definitely very visible from almost every point on my balcony. The question is of course: Can I do anything as a renter ? (obviously the owner is making some good money off it - so they could care less). Or are there grounds for a rent reduction, maybe due to the areas which are will be considered 'short stay only' with the calculated values.
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Old 03.09.2020, 11:54
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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It's definitely very visible from almost every point on my balcony. The question is of course: Can I do anything as a renter ? (obviously the owner is making some good money off it - so they could care less). Or are there grounds for a rent reduction, maybe due to the areas which are will be considered 'short stay only' with the calculated values.
I very much doubt that there are grounds for a rent reduction ( on the grounds of the eyesore) but no harm in asking - if one is serious about the increased risk, it cannot be compensated with a rent reduction. As a renter you do not get to share the profit made by the owner. Whether or not the owner decides to buy off his tenants to stop them protesting.........
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Old 03.09.2020, 12:26
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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I very much doubt that there are grounds for a rent reduction ( on the grounds of the eyesore) but no harm in asking - if one is serious about the increased risk, it cannot be compensated with a rent reduction. As a renter you do not get to share the profit made by the owner. Whether or not the owner decides to buy off his tenants to stop them protesting.........
That's what I'm kind of afraid of, they are making profit at 'nimby' costs to us. Any it really looks like we have no choice but to accept it or move out.

Considering it was close to impossible to find an apartment we could afford, the whole situation is a lot of extra stress and hassle for us, just so the owners can add to their hundreds of billions.

(bitter much :P )
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Old 08.09.2020, 11:17
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Re: 5G tower on roof

Give me a day or two to locate the file but I do have medical study from the U.S military. This technology was first developed as a weapon by the Russians. (Nixon)The study is quite scary actually, but it really depends on the power output. Low output: not so bad. High output: run like hell and leave your shit behind but do grab your pets and plants.

Can someone hack these towers and turn them into weapons? Thats the real question (For me anyways).
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Old 08.09.2020, 14:42
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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This technology was first developed as a weapon by the Russians. (Nixon)The study is quite scary actually, but it really depends on the power output.

Can someone hack these towers and turn them into weapons? Thats the real question (For me anyways).
I think you're likely to be mixing things A LOT. The first MIMOs were first used for 4G networks in the late 90s. Perhaps invented in the very late 80s at the earliest...no chance the technology existed in the late 60s/early 70s. And no, you can't "hack" an antenna and make it exponentially increase its power. Not more than you can "hack" a car and have it tow an appartment building.
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Old 08.09.2020, 14:50
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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I think you're likely to be mixing things A LOT. The first MIMOs were first used for 4G networks in the late 90s. Perhaps invented in the very late 80s at the earliest...no chance the technology existed in the late 60s/early 70s. And no, you can't "hack" an antenna and make it exponentially increase its power. Not more than you can "hack" a car and have it tow an appartment building.

That's what they want you to believe
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Old 08.09.2020, 17:06
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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I think you're likely to be mixing things A LOT. The first MIMOs were first used for 4G networks in the late 90s. Perhaps invented in the very late 80s at the earliest...no chance the technology existed in the late 60s/early 70s. And no, you can't "hack" an antenna and make it exponentially increase its power. Not more than you can "hack" a car and have it tow an appartment building.
But are you sure about that?
4G weapons have been around since the 1950's. EMF is an EMF, no?

Funny how the military can study something that aint even out yet......on the civilian market.
Consumer market is 20-30 years behind. I thought this was common knowledge.
But then again....
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Old 08.09.2020, 17:19
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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But are you sure about that?
4G weapons have been around since the 1950's. EMF is an EMF, no?

Funny how the military can study something that aint even out yet......on the civilian market.
Consumer market is 20-30 years behind. I thought this was common knowledge.
But then again....

you know the difference between 4th generation weapons and 4th generation mobile networks, right?
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Old 08.09.2020, 17:27
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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you know the difference between 4th generation weapons and 4th generation mobile networks, right?
You get more bang for the buck?
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Old 08.09.2020, 19:59
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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EMF is an EMF, no?
That's like saying that a microwave oven and a gamma ray weapon are the same thing. As you patronizingly said yourself, "but then again..." I won't argue with you. You seem a little out of your depth when it comes to basic physics.
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Old 09.09.2020, 08:35
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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Consumer market is 20-30 years behind. I thought this was common knowledge.
But then again....
Military was ahead back then, nowadays the consumer market is nearly ahead in most areas.

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You get more bang for the buck?
Judging by the prices, you get a little more bang for a lot more bucks.
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Old 10.09.2020, 08:14
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Re: 5G tower on roof

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Military was ahead back then, nowadays the consumer market is nearly ahead in most areas.
The military, arn´t these the guys who get the spares for the nuclear launch computers from e-bay?
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