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Old 02.04.2021, 01:57
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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It seems that your sleep patterns are all over the place anyway, but your body clock, dysfunctional as it may be, will easily be able to adjust to the one hour difference, so at worst any additional effect from it will disappear in a day or so.
Why do people keep repeat this argument? It has been shown again and again, scientifically, that this is not the case.

Our biological clock is calibrated by the solar clock, and as such many hormones remain close in tune with the sun, e.g. concentration of cortisol, which is one of the hormones involved in the wake-up process, has been shown to adapt only by a couple of minutes in a trial phase of permanent summertime that lasted three years. Also, during summertime, the phenomenon of "social jetlag" is more pronounced.

We can't just escape simple human biology, which in the case of the circadian clock, has started to evolve hundreds of millions of years ago.
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  #42  
Old 02.04.2021, 04:12
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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Why do people keep repeat this argument? It has been shown again and again, scientifically, that this is not the case.

Our biological clock is calibrated by the solar clock, and as such many hormones remain close in tune with the sun, e.g. concentration of cortisol, which is one of the hormones involved in the wake-up process, has been shown to adapt only by a couple of minutes in a trial phase of permanent summertime that lasted three years. Also, during summertime, the phenomenon of "social jetlag" is more pronounced.

We can't just escape simple human biology, which in the case of the circadian clock, has started to evolve hundreds of millions of years ago.
Sorry, I don't buy it. Most of us have experienced this one-hour clock change twice a year, every year of our lives, and all of us are still here and functioning normally. This year feels different to many of us because we're all affected by the COVID measures—maybe working from home (and probably getting up later as a result), out of shape due to lack of exercise, pissed off due to lack of social interactions, possibly even suffering from the disease or its effects months later without ever knowing we were infected.

A one-hour time change is not difficult to adjust to. Many people on this forum visit the UK regularly. We don't hear them complaining about the dire consequences for their health.

If our hormones "remain close in time with the sun", why don't we wake up progressively earlier—eventually around 5:30 am in Swizerland, much earlier in some far northern and southern countries—as summer marches on? (Without summer time, it'd be an hour earlier than that!)

Your suggestion that daylight saving clock changes are bad for human health carry about as much water as your intimation that humans have been evolving for "hundreds of millions of years". You mentioned circadian clocks; the term 'circadian' is used because these internal clocks are approximate: circa dies, about one day. In humans, the circadian clock runs about 10% fast, i.e. a full cycle is about 24.2 hours, not 24 hours. So it's really no big deal to accommodate a one-hour clock change. At worst, people might feel some sort of adjustment for up to five days, with any perceived effect lessening each day.
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Old 02.04.2021, 07:48
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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Sorry, I don't buy it. Most of us have experienced this one-hour clock change twice a year, every year of our lives, and all of us are still here and functioning normally. This year feels different to many of us because we're all affected by the COVID measures—maybe working from home (and probably getting up later as a result), out of shape due to lack of exercise, pissed off due to lack of social interactions, possibly even suffering from the disease or its effects months later without ever knowing we were infected.

A one-hour time change is not difficult to adjust to. Many people on this forum visit the UK regularly. We don't hear them complaining about the dire consequences for their health.

If our hormones "remain close in time with the sun", why don't we wake up progressively earlier—eventually around 5:30 am in Swizerland, much earlier in some far northern and southern countries—as summer marches on? (Without summer time, it'd be an hour earlier than that!)

Your suggestion that daylight saving clock changes are bad for human health carry about as much water as your intimation that humans have been evolving for "hundreds of millions of years". You mentioned circadian clocks; the term 'circadian' is used because these internal clocks are approximate: circa dies, about one day. In humans, the circadian clock runs about 10% fast, i.e. a full cycle is about 24.2 hours, not 24 hours. So it's really no big deal to accommodate a one-hour clock change. At worst, people might feel some sort of adjustment for up to five days, with any perceived effect lessening each day.
Let me keep it short, because I won't waste my time explaining the scientific evidence to someone who "doesn't buy it" (just like with other deniers of scientific evidence, e.g. climate change deniers):

1. I referred to the circadian clock having evolved for hundreds of millions of years, which is a verifiable fact. Just because humans haven't been around that long, doesn't mean that parts of our genome didn't start developing earlier. That's basic biology. But great use of smileys on your part!
2. Using traveling into a different time zone to argue that one can easily adjust to a time difference of one hour shows that you fundamentally misunderstand the problem: usually when one travels into a different timezone not only the social time changes but also the solar time, this is not the case when we switch to summer time (or back to standard time).
3. you refer to the circadian clock running fast. This is true under laboratory conditions if there is no input of natural light. Natural light, as I pointed out in my earlier comment, calibrates our internal clock. This only highlights the importance of light to keep our biological clock in tune with our environment, thanks for bringing it up!
4. major scientific research communities and research societies in the field of circadian rythms have publicly spoken out against (permanent) daylight-saving time (DST or pDST) and in favor of standard time (ST, "wintertime").

From a joint statement of the European Sleep Research Society, European Biological Rhythms Society and the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms:

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We would like to emphasize that the scientific evidence presently available indicates that installing permanent Central European Time (CET, standard time or ‘wintertime’) is the best option for public health.
The European Biological Rhythms Society further writes:

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ST improves our sleep (1) and will be healthier for our heart (2) and our weight (3). The incidence of cancer will decrease (4), in addition to reduced alcohol- and tobacco consumption (5). People will be psychologically healthier (6) and performance at school and work will improve (7).
The Society for Research on biological rhythms concludes:

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We therefore strongly support removing DST changes or removing permanent DST and having governing organizations choose permanent Standard Time for the health and safety of their citizens.
The American Academy of Sleep Medicine further says:

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It is the position of the AASM that the U.S. should eliminate seasonal time changes in favor of a national, fixed, year-round time. Current evidence best supports the adoption of year-round standard time, which aligns best with human circadian biology and provides distinct benefits for public health and safety.
There are some other aspects that one may also consider, e.g. safety, commercial activity or recreational activity, but current evidence related to sleep and biological rhythms - with a focus on public health - is pretty clear.
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  #44  
Old 02.04.2021, 09:30
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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Let me keep it short, because I won't waste my time explaining the scientific evidence to someone who "doesn't buy it" (just like with other deniers of scientific evidence, e.g. climate change deniers):

1. I referred to the circadian clock having evolved for hundreds of millions of years, which is a verifiable fact. Just because humans haven't been around that long, doesn't mean that parts of our genome didn't start developing earlier. That's basic biology. But great use of smileys on your part!
2. Using traveling into a different time zone to argue that one can easily adjust to a time difference of one hour shows that you fundamentally misunderstand the problem: usually when one travels into a different timezone not only the social time changes but also the solar time, this is not the case when we switch to summer time (or back to standard time).
3. you refer to the circadian clock running fast. This is true under laboratory conditions if there is no input of natural light. Natural light, as I pointed out in my earlier comment, calibrates our internal clock. This only highlights the importance of light to keep our biological clock in tune with our environment, thanks for bringing it up!
4. major scientific research communities and research societies in the field of circadian rythms have publicly spoken out against (permanent) daylight-saving time (DST or pDST) and in favor of standard time (ST, "wintertime").

From a joint statement of the European Sleep Research Society, European Biological Rhythms Society and the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms:



The European Biological Rhythms Society further writes:



The Society for Research on biological rhythms concludes:



The American Academy of Sleep Medicine further says:



There are some other aspects that one may also consider, e.g. safety, commercial activity or recreational activity, but current evidence related to sleep and biological rhythms - with a focus on public health - is pretty clear.
Again, nope. You can quote as many scientific opinions as you like but for each, there will be at least one dissenting opinion. I'm amused by your condescending tone, by the way. Apparently you haven't paid any attention to my posts on the subjects of climate change, vaccination, or any other scientific subject.

1. Please verify your "verifiable fact" that the circadian clock has evolved for hundreds of millions of years. (It's an impossible task, but have at it.) Proto-mammals evolved around 200 million years ago, the minimum requirement for "hundreds of millions of years ago"; please provide your proof of circadian clocks in these animals.
2. Social time is a human construct and is engineered to suit humans. There exist many examples of locations on the same solar time but operating in different social timezones. Take a look at the crazy time zone map to understand this. Almost all of the UK is on the same solar time zone as Spain, but permanently one hour behind Spain's "social time". I don't remember reading all those reports of holidaymakers falling like flies in Benidorm as they suffer the ill effects of the clock change. The same goes for several towns in Australia that are divided by a time zone line or state border. No ill effects. And there are dozens, even hundreds of cities around the world in a similar position, with people travelling between them and reporting no perceived effect.
3. I pointed out that calibration of the circadian clock to natural light is a very rapid process, taking at most a handful of days—not the dozens of years or more implied by your claim that our circadian clocks "adapt only by a couple of minutes in a trial phase of permanent summertime that lasted three years". If your claim were true, inter-time zone travel would be nearly impossible as nobody would ever recover from jetlag. Again, millions of holidaymakers seem to be immune from the insidious effects of this everlasting jetlag. How odd.
4. Again, for every "major scientific research community and research society" advocating against DST or pDST, there is one taking the opposite view. Are your lot also advocating that the UK and Spain align their time zones?

There is also overwhelming evidence for the benefits to be reaped from "more daylight" in the evening and less in the morning: fewer road accidents, greater participation in sport and exercise routines, improved mental health, greater social interaction, and the list goes on.

"Social time" is a human construct and humans will rapidly adjust to whatever they decide time to be. An extreme example is the uniform time zone applied to the entire country of China, a country that "should" incorporate five time zones. I certainly don't believe that far western China should operate on the same "social time" as Beijing. But it does, and despite people going about their daily lives according to an artificial clock displaced from solar time by around five hours, they do just that: go about their normal life. They are completely adapted to their version of time. If everybody in western Europe adopted pDST (no need to apply just one time zone), the same would happen here in a matter of days.
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  #45  
Old 02.04.2021, 11:41
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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your body clock, dysfunctional as it may be, will easily be able to adjust to the one hour difference
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Why do people keep repeat this argument? It has been shown again and again, scientifically, that this is not the case.
Has it? Where, exactly? Certainly not in any of the articles that you quote.

I love your use of "verifiable fact", which is synonymous with "common knowledge" and usually refers to something that is neither a fact nor verifiable. It's good to see it quite early in your post as a warning that the rest of it should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
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  #46  
Old 02.04.2021, 13:00
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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4. major scientific research communities and research societies in the field of circadian rythms have publicly spoken out against (permanent) daylight-saving time (DST or pDST) and in favor of standard time (ST, "wintertime").
I am trying to undersand your reasoning:
1. first you say that our circadian rythm is coneected to the daylight and sun
2. and than you say ST and DST are working against circadian rythm

- if the first statement is true, than a fluid time would be the best, and ST+DST is better approximation than only ST.

- if we look only at the statement that DST is wrong: Every time zone has 1 hour difference in it, from east to west. So, the whole concept of "standard time" and 1 hour time zones is already flawed so much, that actually ST or SDT doesn't matter at all.

For me actually much bigger problem is that we cannot choose our working times according to our circadian preferences, but we have to stick to social norms. Frankly I do not care what are the numbers on my alarm clock, except to catch time-frame that is expected by my boss, even when my morning work is abysmal. So, I rejoice the DST and in permanent ST I would probably try to find a job where I don't have to start at eight.
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  #47  
Old 02.04.2021, 13:03
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

I wish kids could adjust their learning to their circadian preferences. I think in the future they will.
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Old 02.04.2021, 13:28
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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For me actually much bigger problem is that we cannot choose our working times according to our circadian preferences, but we have to stick to social norms. Frankly I do not care what are the numbers on my alarm clock, except to catch time-frame that is expected by my boss, even when my morning work is abysmal.
I absolutely agree. Being forced to start work at an arbitrary set time is not conducive to best productivity, and never was, which of course was why so many employers moved to more flexible timekeeping arrangements over the last 20-odd years.

From around 2009 my employer started to shift a lot of its US operation from East to West coast, resulting in a 9-hour difference, and this lead to a much better work day from my perspective. I'm not a morning person at all, so starting the day at a leisurely pace, from around 10am, with major meetings not starting til around lunchtime, even with the early risers of California, and going on to perhaps 7 or later in the evening, was ideal for me. Meant that I could concentrate on the less challenging aspects of the job when my brain was at its least effective, but be fully up and running by the time that important interactions were required.
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Old 02.04.2021, 13:39
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

Clearly the solution is to eliminate the tilt of the earth's axis!

Tom
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Old 02.04.2021, 15:03
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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Clearly the solution is to eliminate the tilt of the earth's axis!

Tom
I can't wait for your suggestions!
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Old 02.04.2021, 15:35
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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I can't wait for your suggestions!
Atomic bombs of course. Aren't they answer on everything?
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Old 02.04.2021, 15:59
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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4. Again, for every "major scientific research community and research society" advocating against DST or pDST, there is one taking the opposite view. Are your lot also advocating that the UK and Spain align their time zones?
As a matter of fact, there are in Spain a number of groups that claim that all the problems of the country would be solved if we switched to GMT, "where we should be". I don't think most people support this, but these groups get a lot of space in the media around the clock changes and convince more and more people who don't realise how flawed some or their arguments are.

For instance, "if we changed to GMT / did not have DST, the sun would set 1h earlier in summer and it would not be so hot when we go to bed, so we would sleep better". And of course, the poor folk who remembers how he was trying to sleep with 29 degrees last summer, think "oh yes, this is a real problem". But none of them has apparently thought about the fact that the sun will also rise one hour earlier, so if you want to go for a walk or do some sport in the fresh morning before the heat is unhealthy, or simply work outdoors, you will have to get up one hour earlier. Your social habits would shift by one hour, so you would have to go to bed one hour earlier, and it would be equally damn hot that before changing to GMT.

Or the brilliant "Companies who work with other European companies where they usually take their lunch break at 12:00 face the problem that those foreign partners stop for lunch at 12 but we only go for lunch at 13, so we have 2 hours where we cannot communicate. If we changed the time, we could go for lunch at 12 as they do". Yes, Einstein, but then at 12h when you would stop for lunch it would be 13h in the rest of (central) Europe, so the situation would be the same.
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  #53  
Old 02.04.2021, 16:08
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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Atomic bombs of course. Aren't they answer on everything?
Would that be the peak of the climatic change?
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Old 03.04.2021, 01:04
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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Why do people keep repeat this argument? It has been shown again and again, scientifically, that this is not the case.

Our biological clock is calibrated by the solar clock, and as such many hormones remain close in tune with the sun, e.g. concentration of cortisol, which is one of the hormones involved in the wake-up process, has been shown to adapt only by a couple of minutes in a trial phase of permanent summertime that lasted three years. Also, during summertime, the phenomenon of "social jetlag" is more pronounced.

We can't just escape simple human biology, which in the case of the circadian clock, has started to evolve hundreds of millions of years ago.
Might explain why I had absolutely no problem getting up at 7.30 in summer when I lived in the UK but consistently struggle to do the same here. During wintertime, 7.30 practically felt like sleeping in. I would also manage to go to sleep before midnight, another thing I struggle to do here, even when I am absolutely shattered.

Things are not as bad when I have a routine that involves getting up and living the house, i.e. getting some sunlight in the morning. Of course, you will ever so helpfully suggest I replicate this by going for a walk before I start work. It's a vicious cycle though, if I am unable to sleep, I struggle to get up on time, so there is no way I will be up and ready for a walk before 8.00, and so it continues.
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Old 05.04.2021, 11:25
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

The only appropriate physical criterion to verify which correct timezone to be in, is the one that has the Sun (mean Sun at least, let's temporarily ignore the Equation of Time) within 7.5 degrees of true South, at midday.

This gives an equal amount of daylight before and after the center of the day.

For a country's timezone, pick the geometric centre of population, and pick that location as the place to determine the timezone from.

Anyone that complains about school times, business start times, you do of course realise that these can be arbitrarily changed if so desired. It's much easier to change a school class start time than the rotation of the earth after all. It's also much easier to change an average office day start time than to change every clock in the country.

Using the above criteria, Switzerland should be in the +01 timezone - all of the time as the center of population is just over 7.5 degrees East of the Prime Meridian. France, Spain, the Low Countries - they should be in the +00 timezone, but aren't for political reasons. Germany is correctly in the +01 zone.

It makes absolutely no sense to continually change the clocks everywhere for what has turned out to be false reasoning, and it makes no sense from a physical and geographical reason to go to +02 permanently.

If Switzerland mistakenly chooses to stay at +02, that would mean that the sun would only get to due south at 13.32 on July first, and 13.34 on New Year's day (both from Zurich.)
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Old 05.04.2021, 11:44
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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It makes absolutely no sense...
In your opinion. You're stating a lot of stuff, but failing to separate the facts from your interpretation of them.

You start by assuming, indeed insisting, that everyone should stick to (best approximation of) solar time, whereas that's just as arbitrary a setting as anything else. The rest of the logic that follows on from it is therefore meaningless.

Last edited by Guest; 05.04.2021 at 12:12.
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Old 05.04.2021, 17:33
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

Well, I love it- that extra hour in the evening. Well worth any trouble- and can't wait for the warm weather to return to enjoy eating outside and sitting outside in the evening. Some of us find it very easy to adjust in a couple of days, and truly enjoy the benefits.
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Old 05.04.2021, 18:19
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

The rationale for time zones is driven more by politics and economics than geography. China, which is over 5000 km from east to west is on a single time zone (UTC+8). Canada is about 60% wider and has six time zones) Canadian time zones are aligned with its Southern neighbour and every time they change, so does Canada. In the US it is the department of transportation that decides on time zones. Think about that for a minute.

Heaven only knows why the UK and France are different (mutual disdain I suppose) as their Capitals both straddle the prime Meridian.

I would prefer to stay on summer time all year, but nobody listens to me. Switzerland will do what its neighbours do.
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Old 05.04.2021, 19:50
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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Heaven only knows why the UK and France are different (mutual disdain I suppose) as their Capitals both straddle the prime Meridian.
Quite simply because France wanted to be on the same some as it's trading partners to the East, starting with Germany, which is pretty much straddling the +1 zone, and which also wants to be on the same time as it's own trading partners to the East as well as the West.
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Old 05.04.2021, 20:52
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Re: Time Change - Oct 2020

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Quite simply because France wanted to be on the same some as it's trading partners to the East, starting with Germany, which is pretty much straddling the +1 zone, and which also wants to be on the same time as it's own trading partners to the East as well as the West.
So, logically, the UK (and Portugal) should suck it up and join the +1 club. Which means the +2 club, as the only sensible thing to do is to adopt permanent summer time.

Come to think of it, if the US wants to trade with Europe, they really should adopt permanent GMT +2 time too.
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