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Old 20.11.2020, 12:08
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How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

Very general question here, just feel its worth a crack as its on my mind and might get some discussion.

With brexit on the horizon, the country continuing to decline, and our kid growing up I've been discussing with the Swiss missus about whether we should be leaving the UK.
Moving back to Switzerland is the most logical thing to do with this. But a key problem stands out...

At the moment we're living in a decent sized house in a convenient location with a big enough garden and a pretty good quality of home-life. I own the house (well, mortgage) and its really great to be living free of regies or upstairs neighbours, free to change whatever we like, and again, with outside space. After my 20s renting flats its great to have my own place.
With Switzerland of course the same thing seems less than possible. We're not wealthy enough to afford a house anywhere near civilization in Switzerland. Even putting aside getting a house I also hear taxes and such things really disincentivise home ownership in Switzerland which is why its rarely done.

So I'm asking.... Is there anyone in the same position of having 'downgraded' from a owned house to a rental flat when moving to Switzerland?
How did you adjust?
Did you have to get rid of a large amount of things before moving or did you count on it being temporary and have storage?
In particular for kids how much of a head-f*k was the massive alteration in how life works?
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Old 20.11.2020, 13:03
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

Simple answer: I struggled with the change.

When we moved here we found the most 'house-like' rental that we could. It was an old wooden chalet, now split into two maisonette type flats. What made it different from similar buildings was that it was built into a hillside so that the downstairs neighbors were not underneath us. We each had separate entrances and we each had our own laundry room. And most important, we each had our own private gardens. Built into a hillside meant that even though I had the top two floors my flat still opened directly into my garden.

There was still the issue of living within close proximity, which is hard to escape in my part of Switzerland even if you own a single family home. Coming from a green and leafy metro Chicago suburb where owning an acre 'in town' is the norm, having only a few meters between neighbors, regardless of housing type, was enough of a culture shock.

What made it bearable is that the downstairs neighbors were delightful people - we both moved away years ago, but we still remain good friends.

As soon as my permit allowed, I moved cantons and bought a house. Financially that was a wise move - my quarterly mortgage payment is about the price of a decent dinner out, whereas my monthly rent was exorbitant.

Things were good at first, but unfortunately later my living situation turned into be hell on earth, even though I own my own home with a private garden. It goes to how close together things are built here, and the 'tone' of the neighborhood.

The latter is something very difficult to judge, and even when you get it right things can change when new people move in. Research 'Nachbarrecht'.

In Switzerland the Anglo-American concept of 'my home is my castle' really does not exist. Your neighbors, whether in a flat or house, in a rental or owned property, have more say in what you can do and how you live your life than is imaginable for many of us from very different cultures.

Twenty some years later I still struggle.

So... as you are looking at rental properties my advice would be to put priority on:

Own laundry facilities. Seriously. A shared laundry room is a flashpoint, avoid if you can.

Look for some private outdoor space, either a maisonette like we had, or a ground floor flat with garden, or a large balcony that can be a place for the children to play.

A terraced flat is often a better choice noise-wise, both for you hearing neighbors and they you. Expectations of quiet here can be very different to what you are used to.

Try to get a measure of your immediate neighbors before taking on the flat. You are lucky here, as your wife is Swiss and will likely have a better sense of how to assess the tone of the building/neighborhood.

How young are your children? It can be tough for youg children to adjust to Swiss expectations of more communal behavior, especially noise levels. But again, this is where your Swiss wife should take the lead in preparing the children.

WFH due to the pandemic has really been a struggle for many given how small spaces are here. As there is talk of WFH in some fashion becoming part of our new normal, plan for that. Look for a place with a separate office, one that can be closed off from the rest of the family space.

Hopefully you will find a nice place with nice neighbors and the things I've mentioned will not apply.


All the best with the move.
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Old 20.11.2020, 14:13
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

it really depends on your neighbours and how well you get on with them.

agree best is to minimize contact. e.g. no shared laundry

in more modern flats i lived in, i barely even noticed the neighbours. one i bumped into only 1 year after living there. another 3 years later after i left (met at a party).

if you're not sensitive to noise, then that's one half of the battle but your neighbours may be overly sensitive which could create problems if you have noisy kids.

i'd advise to move into flats with other families with kids and no old cranky people who spend all day complaining about noise and how to clean the laundry room.
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Old 20.11.2020, 14:21
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

It was easy for us, as it was just the husband and I and no kids (US -> CH). We sold or gave away almost everything before we left with the idea of getting only what we needed (and had room for) once we settled in.

Our building is older (1930) and we have the top floor. We never hear our neighbors with their washing machine in the unit below us is the only exception, and it is just a minor vibration through the floor.

Of course there are things that I miss about having a house, but I am content with the apartment that we have.

I think that a lot of it is how you approach it mentally. For us, it was a Great Adventure (tm) and we made the best of the opportunity.
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Old 20.11.2020, 14:32
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

If I had my time again, I would have kept the house in the UK and rented it out.
Consider doing that for say 5 years. Switzerland is not to everyone's tastes, and life change.


When looking at apartments, high on the list should be sound insulation.
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Old 20.11.2020, 14:58
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

We are a family of 4 (kids are now 8 and 11) and we moved to CH, 6 and a half years ago. We had a lovely 3-bedroom semi-detached house (which we were just about to upgrade to a detached one) with a nice garden. Both of us had 100% employment in a blue-chip co, but we (probably) could see the writing on the wall. We left our secure jobs (not so secure after Brexit), and moved here with only one of us working, to a rented apartment (1st floor), so no private garden. But I did insist we have own washing machine/dryer in the apartment - thanks EF!!! Lots of our friends in the UK were worried about our move! How things changed! Now, we are worried about them!

We’ve been (still are) very happy, despite not owning our own roof. We have a 120sqm apartment, which is bigger than our semi-detached in the UK, and I don’t need to do any gardening. Yay! We have a shared garden with the neighbours (we do have great neighbours) and our kids get all the fresh air they need - either in the shared garden or the neighbouring play area. Gardens are overrated. At least in my life before Corona .

I find the apartments here are much bigger than what we had in the UK. At least the 3rd bedroom here is a proper bedroom and not the sort of tiny space where you need to choose between a cot or a chest of drawers! We brought all our furniture (and weirdly our garden tools) over to CH, and in the beginning we needed to buy new furniture to fill the roomy rooms (plus the kids grow and need more stuff).

The adjustment to Swiss life took no time at all - we already got into hiking the first weekend we were here, and the rest is history. It did help that we wanted to make the most of CH, and decided earlier on to politely refuse things from the UK when family and friends were visiting (except for Bisto). Sure, cheddar was replaced by Gouda, and Bisto was eventually replaced by these knorr concoctions, but we are still alive 🤓🤓.

Of course there are times when I wish I had my own home, where I can do my own thing and have my own space (especially now that my oldest one is turning into a teenager, and I need to duck for cover). But hey ho, we do get some benefits that we have learnt to cherish in the meantime.

Good luck!
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Old 20.11.2020, 15:49
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

Does your wife come from a town or rural area? Would you be prepared to commute for up to 1 hour to get out of town? If you are prepared to do so, then you can get much larger apartments, or even rent houses or part house, for a much lower price and with ore space, access to a garden, etc.


Swiss do not all live in built-up areas with high rise apartments- your wife must be aware of this. Which area would you be aiming for?
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Old 20.11.2020, 16:47
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

I'd suggest renting here for a while anyway while you work out where you want to live permanently. You say you can't afford somewhere close to civilisation, but that's going to depend on where you want to be and also what your budget is. We got our 1950s 4-bed house pretty cheap for the Swiss market, yet we're only around 10 kilometres from Fribourg city.

Also how soon do you plan to move? Because unless you have an EU nationality as well as British (I'm assuming) your wife is going to have to show she can financially support you as her dependent to be able to get a family reunification permit for you as of 1st January 2021 when UK nationals cease to be EU nationals as well.
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Old 20.11.2020, 17:08
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

Owning a house is not a nightmare. Not in the city, but you can find very nice properties for between 1.5 - 2 million (or even less depending on what you want).


While you do have to pay some taxes on an own house, the tax valuation is usually much less than the price you paid. In our case the valuation by the authorities is a third of what we paid. To offset this the interest you pay is fully tax deductible, so on a CHF 1.5m home you'd pay +- CHF 15,000 a year.


Of course you do have the upkeep and repairs which you won't have in a rented place but a lot of that you can do yourself if you're a bit handy - and even if you're not.


So don't be put off from buying your own property.
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Old 20.11.2020, 17:20
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

Thanks for the replies everyone.

To answer the questions in one big confused mess....

I have lived in Switzerland for many years in the past so I am pretty comfortable with how things are there in general, albeit not with kids and not after having owned a house.
The young'un is just a baby for now but we're thinking about this move theoretically probably for several years down the line. Definitely before senior school, I don't want to subject a kid to British schools.
My wife is from Lausanne and with her line of work/poor German we'd probably have to live within reach of the French speaking part of the country either way, though my preference would be the German side.
Around Leman I have been very tempted by the wonderful prices on the French side of the border and that escape to the chateau series despite the horror stories heard of the hidden costs... but again all very theoretical and idle wondering for now. I'm not counting anything out basically and leaving all options open (as much as she'd prefer I closed off my mind to France). Within reasonable train-reach of wherever I get a job I'd guess is the answer for where in Switzerland.

Is it hard to get a permit when married to a Swiss person? I'd understood in the past that it was nowhere near as strict as in the UK and it was quite a given that spouses were allowed to immigrate.

As to not everyone living in flats in Ch...Undoubtedly some people don't but I've not met many of them. Even many people I know living in small towns seem to be in flats in sub-divided houses. Renting a house would help a little but still a lot of the downgrade restrictions apply and, most important for me, I absolutely hate driving so wouldn't want to be anywhere too remote (as much as I also dislike people and wouldn't mind the mountain air ) so being realistic with what we can afford and where, a flat seems likely.
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Old 20.11.2020, 17:47
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

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If I had my time again, I would have kept the house in the UK and rented it out.
Consider doing that for say 5 years. Switzerland is not to everyone's tastes, and life change.
This.

5yrs in, we're still renting out our house in the UK.
I came from a street where everyone knows their neighbours and nips into each others' houses for a brew and a natter, so the neighbours aspect of living in a rented apartment here was not a change for us. Plus, for the 2yrs before we moved here, we'd both been on secondment in another part of the UK, so were renting a house there.

Biggest change was downgrading to an apartment which is a fraction of the size of our UK house, and we wouldn't have managed it without utilising our keller. We had two households worth of furniture to deal with (one from the house we own and another from the house we rented). After a number of quotes to ship stuff over, we decided to dispose of it all in the UK and buy new in Switzerland. We gave friends and family first refusal, and most of our stuff went that way. The rest went on our local Freecycle group or to charity shops. I'm a big believer in 'paying it forward', so these methods suited me, and I got a real kick/surprise out of friends laying claim to my entire vinyl collection or a chest of drawers that they'd always admired, etc... All 3 cars went on ebay.

My partner's moved country several times and still says one of his biggest mistakes was shipping everything over on his first big move, but everyone feels differently about that. We did the initial move with just 2 large suitcases each. Probably took another 3 trips to bring everything we wanted over before renting the house out.

We never used a storage facility because it's dead money.

Thing is, you're young. You will buy another home once you realise that the scarily high price of houses doesn't tally with the mortgage system thinking you're used to with the UK market, but take your sweet time to be absolutely sure of the area and house you want to buy. Think of this move as your breathing space to decide what's exactly right for you and your family. Good luck!
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Old 20.11.2020, 18:46
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

I went from an owned flat, to an owned house, regretted it and went back to an owned flat.

We went to the house because we thought we wanted a bigger place with our young kids, where we could do whatever we want and all the stuff you say you like about having your own house.

After a short while, we realized that this was not what we wanted. I spent so much time fixing things around the house and the garden, the wife worries about security, there were too many steps to climb up and down everyday, trying to clean up is a massive undertaking, we still had problems with the neighbours (mostly garden issues), etc.. It took us a few more years to find the perfect flat and then we downgraded - we sold the house, and bought the flat.

We went from 210sqm to about 160sqm, but we do not miss that space at all. We still have a garden but I am happy to share the cost of that upkeep and the areas outside our flat with the neighbours. Maintenance costs a bit more than our house, but at least I don't have to organize everything myself. We also feel more secure.

We had to get rid of some stuff, mostly sold them online, or got the moving people to dump them after moving the rest. We got rid of an old couch, a single bed, some small cabinets, and sadly an aquarium (though I don't miss the work associated with that!). The wife actually enjoyed cleaning out all the junk in our cellar/attic.

Our flat is rather large by swiss standards, so we are lucky. But even with 50m2 less than the house, we don't miss the space. I must say that quite a bit of that space in that house was dead space, i.e, small unusable corners, stairwell, corridors, and actually only one bedroom more.
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Old 21.11.2020, 13:26
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

Keeping the house in the UK is a good idea - if you can afford it.

I kept my house in the US for about 5 years. I found a good property management company that took care of the day-to-day stuff. It was nice to know that if we ever went back to the States, we had a landing spot.

But then we realized that we never wanted to go back, and there were rumblings of bathroom / kitchen upgrades and I figured that with the (exceptionally high) housing market, I would just cut all ties and sell.

I do not regret this, but am glad that I kept it as an option for as long as I did.
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Old 21.11.2020, 13:45
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

One of my stupidest financial decisions was to sell my Chicagoland home when we moved to Switzerland. In the intervening years, the value of that house shot through the stratosphere.

My Swiss house, on the other hand, has at best not appreciated at all, at worst might even be worth less today than 15 years ago.

Heck, if I'd held on to the Chicago house perhaps I would even have been able to afford to retire in Switzerland. Ah well... such is hindsight.

I agree with the other posters: If you can, hold on to your UK property. At least until you have a clearer picture of what the future holds for you and the family.
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Old 21.11.2020, 14:53
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

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While you do have to pay some taxes on an own house, the tax valuation is usually much less than the price you paid. In our case the valuation by the authorities is a third of what we paid. To offset this the interest you pay is fully tax deductible, so on a CHF 1.5m home you'd pay +- CHF 15,000 a year.
We pay 0.

CHF 700k value, taxable value 220k, mortgage 315k, so negative value from a tax point of view.

Tom
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Old 21.11.2020, 16:36
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Re: How did you 'downgrade' to a rental flat?

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I went from an owned flat, to an owned house, regretted it and went back to an owned flat.

We went to the house because we thought we wanted a bigger place with our young kids, where we could do whatever we want and all the stuff you say you like about having your own house.

After a short while, we realized that this was not what we wanted. I spent so much time fixing things around the house and the garden, the wife worries about security, there were too many steps to climb up and down everyday, trying to clean up is a massive undertaking, we still had problems with the neighbours (mostly garden issues), etc.. It took us a few more years to find the perfect flat and then we downgraded - we sold the house, and bought the flat.

We went from 210sqm to about 160sqm, but we do not miss that space at all. We still have a garden but I am happy to share the cost of that upkeep and the areas outside our flat with the neighbours. Maintenance costs a bit more than our house, but at least I don't have to organize everything myself. We also feel more secure.

We had to get rid of some stuff, mostly sold them online, or got the moving people to dump them after moving the rest. We got rid of an old couch, a single bed, some small cabinets, and sadly an aquarium (though I don't miss the work associated with that!). The wife actually enjoyed cleaning out all the junk in our cellar/attic.

Our flat is rather large by swiss standards, so we are lucky. But even with 50m2 less than the house, we don't miss the space. I must say that quite a bit of that space in that house was dead space, i.e, small unusable corners, stairwell, corridors, and actually only one bedroom more.
My wife and I both owned small flats in Inner London before meeting - still have them.

We then moved to a rented 4 bed detached house in Outer London after meeting and having our daughter. It was money well spent as I realised I'm just too lazy and undomesticated to ever care for a house and garden and won't ever buy one. I thought grown ups with children should have a house not a flat because that's just how it is in provincial England (I'm from the north east)

Now we are in a rented new build 100 metre square 3.5 room flat with underfloor heating and everything working right next to the station.

When we buy I'll be looking for a 5.5 ish room 150 ish square metre flat. More convenient than a house and plenty of space.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 21.11.2020 at 16:49.
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