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  #21  
Old 09.12.2020, 13:57
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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60% of Swiss electricity production al already by water driven turbines!

Tom
Yes, but technology improves all the time.

The U.K, with a maritime climate and the subsequent winds and having a coast of course, is eminently suitable for wind farms - especially as these can be sited out at sea, away from spoiling views and out of migratory paths of birds etc.

Switzerland generally just doesn't get wind on a consistent enough level for wind farms across the whole country.


There are advancements in hydro power, which include much greater efficiency, and small-scale plants more along the lines of an old flour mill rather than a reservoir and dam combination, so enough power could be produced by a village's river to power at least some of the village for most of the months of the year.
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  #22  
Old 09.12.2020, 17:04
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

Huge turbines (higher than 200m) were proposed near where I live in Eastern Switzerland but the locals mobilised sufficiently to put the dampners on it, for now.
Coming from Ireland I always thought there is incredibly little wind in Switzerland - something I've grown to love, so I was shocked when I saw the turbine proposals at first.

The Gates foundation supported the design of a new type of Nuclear power plant which proposes to use the existing waste from current and old nuclear power plants as a fuel. in theory these new power plants are safer, get rid of the majority of the existing nuclear waste, and render what remains as less dangerous. China was looking at developing a few of these but the trade war with Trump caused them to stop.
Anywho, if all that is true, I'd much rather one or two such power plants in switz instead of a load of wind turbines.
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  #23  
Old 09.12.2020, 19:25
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

Wind turbines have become a total blot on the landscape in the Highlands of Scotland. You can see them for miles in the distance and some very beautiful remote landscapes have been totally spoiled, but what else can you expect from the SNP government run by ex town councillors in Holyrood

There's a huge one just round the coast from my house in Fife, you can see it in the distance from the local beach. People living along there complain about the noise from it all the time, some say it affects their health.
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Old 09.12.2020, 20:02
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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Agree. Just build more nuclear and be done with it.
Well, the voters in 2017 decided to phase out nuclear. At least they were wise enough to allow the existing ones to run their full life time.
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Old 09.12.2020, 20:41
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

They kill birds!
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  #26  
Old 11.12.2020, 01:25
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

wind are the weak point of Switzerland only way to go green without visual pollution is to use solar slates on every roof in Switzerland and to enhance the existing hydropower ...
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Old 11.12.2020, 09:33
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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Well, the voters in 2017 decided to phase out nuclear.
Massive mistake, born out of irrational fear and misinformation. But that's humans for you.
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  #28  
Old 11.12.2020, 10:00
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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Massive mistake, born out of irrational fear and misinformation. But that's humans for you.
Maybe. Maybe not. The cost of new nuclear power stations in Europe is crazy. The one being built in Finland is delayed by almost a decade, and the one in the UK needed a power price of almost 100 GBP/MWh to be economic (market price is less than 50, government guarantees the rest).

I have no problems with nuclear power, and they provide super reliable baseload, but I don't think they are competitive against a good mix of gas and renewables.
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Old 11.12.2020, 11:31
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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Massive mistake, born out of irrational fear and misinformation. But that's humans for you.
Swiss version of Brexit.

Tom
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Old 11.12.2020, 11:39
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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Well, the voters in 2017 decided to phase out nuclear. At least they were wise enough to allow the existing ones to run their full life time.
It's a law from and for people, the 2017 vote did not change the physic's laws I only see this vote as a moratorium. It can be changed by another vote on 2047, no prob.
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  #31  
Old 11.12.2020, 11:54
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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It's a law from and for people, the 2017 vote did not change the physic's laws I only see this vote as a moratorium. It can be changed by another vote on 2047, no prob.
That would have to be a bit sooner. None of the existing nukes will last that long. Beznau is already the world's oldest operating NPP. Even Leibstadt, which I believe is the youngest, is now 35 years old.

Solar panels on all roofs! And as long as there is no proper storage, there needs to be thermal or nuclear capacity for the winters.
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  #32  
Old 11.12.2020, 12:49
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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That would have to be a bit sooner. None of the existing nukes will last that long. Beznau is already the world's oldest operating NPP. Even Leibstadt, which I believe is the youngest, is now 35 years old.

Solar panels on all roofs! And as long as there is no proper storage, there needs to be thermal or nuclear capacity for the winters.
Also consider CH is connected to the largest electricity exporter in the world: France. All the discourse around the end of nuclear in CH is based on the assumption that nuclear power plants France are there to produce electricity when we need it. Also, the fashionable electrical cars may make people reconsider the vote. 2025 for infrastructure projects is yesterday. https://www.axpo.com/ch/en/about-us/...itzerland.html

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Electricity imports/exports: Over the year as a whole, Switzerland usually produces enough electricity to cover domestic consumption and can therefore export electricity. However, electricity production is particularly high in the summer, whereas in the winter Switzerland is dependent on imports: The last time Switzerland was able to cover its own electricity requirements in winter was in 2002/03. Since then, it has been heavily dependent on imports at this time of year. What's more: In 2017, Switzerland was a net importer for the first time throughout the year.

Security of supply: According to its calculations, the Swiss Federal Office of Energy assumes that security of electricity supply in Switzerland is ensured until 2025. Other federal authorities, such as the Federal Electricity Commission (Elcom), are more skeptical. Elcom says that Switzerland is heading toward an increasing electricity shortage in winter. What's more: Increasing dependence on imports is a real problem. The Swiss Federal Laboratories for Materials Testing and Research (Empa) goes even further. In a study it points out that if Switzerland relies entirely on heat pumps and electromobility - without further measures - there is a risk of a gigantic electricity deficit in winter.
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  #33  
Old 11.12.2020, 13:12
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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Also consider CH is connected to the largest electricity exporter in the world: France. All the discourse around the end of nuclear in CH is based on the assumption that nuclear power plants France are there to produce electricity when we need it. Also, the fashionable electrical cars may make people reconsider the vote. 2025 for infrastructure projects is yesterday. https://www.axpo.com/ch/en/about-us/...itzerland.html
Sure. It is not a secret though that France has quite some issues with its nuclear fleet. Also I am not sure how wise it is too rely heavily on imports. The latest country risk report by the Swiss government has the three biggest risks for the country identified as: pandemic, breakdown of data networks, electricity shortage in winter.
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  #34  
Old 11.12.2020, 17:02
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

Slightly OT, but I think this thread would benefit by some context regarding renewables energies and energy consumptions of a modern country.

I therefore highly recommend the book written by David MacKay (Regius Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge at the time), freely and legally available here:
http://www.withouthotair.com/Contents.html

Loads of informations, loads of interesting ideas, loads of numbers .

Then, this book can be coupled with "
How Bad are Bananas?: The Carbon Footprint of everything" by prof. Mike Berners-Lee, a compilation of many CO2 related measures and emissions, including a rough and controversial calculation on the impact of subsidies to wind energy in the UK: more CO2 emissions can be avoided paying people to sit on the sofa reading a book, rather than paying hefty subventions to "green" energy producers ...
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Old 11.12.2020, 17:27
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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Slightly OT, but I think this thread would benefit by some context regarding renewables energies and energy consumptions of a modern country.

I therefore highly recommend the book written by David MacKay (Regius Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge at the time), freely and legally available here:
http://www.withouthotair.com/Contents.html

Loads of informations, loads of interesting ideas, loads of numbers .

Then, this book can be coupled with "
How Bad are Bananas?: The Carbon Footprint of everything" by prof. Mike Berners-Lee, a compilation of many CO2 related measures and emissions, including a rough and controversial calculation on the impact of subsidies to wind energy in the UK: more CO2 emissions can be avoided paying people to sit on the sofa reading a book, rather than paying hefty subventions to "green" energy producers ...
It's a good book in some of the concepts and ways of thinking, but it's over ten years old and many of the examples and points have proved to be wrong.

Be aware of that when you read it - I did last year and there were a lot of "huh, that's not true" moments until I realised the age!
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  #36  
Old 11.12.2020, 17:30
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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They kill birds!
The old ones with smaller but faster moving blades did. The current generation much much less so, it's not a significant problem any more.
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  #37  
Old 11.12.2020, 17:49
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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For non-nuclear options, they should be exploring water-driven turbines.
I think Switzerland has one of the highest levels of water power usage of any country, and that there isn't much remaining potential that can still be harnessed in a profitable manner. Of course falling energy prices caused by subsidies for wind are not helping.
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Old 11.12.2020, 18:00
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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Maybe. Maybe not. The cost of new nuclear power stations in Europe is crazy. The one being built in Finland is delayed by almost a decade, and the one in the UK needed a power price of almost 100 GBP/MWh to be economic (market price is less than 50, government guarantees the rest).
But the presently low prices of electricity on the wholesale market are caused largely by the massive subsidies for wind and solar.

In other words, the market distortion that makes nuclear difficult to sell is a politically created one.

If, at some point in the future, politicians awaken to the fact that they are slamming the door on a very clean and efficient means of providing a base load, this distortion may yet be removed. Or knowing our politicians, replaced by some other crazy distortion.
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Old 11.12.2020, 18:05
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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But the presently low prices of electricity on the wholesale market are caused largely by the massive subsidies for wind and solar.

In other words, the market distortion that makes nuclear difficult to sell is a politically created one.

If, at some point in the future, politicians awaken to the fact that they are slamming the door on a very clean and efficient means of providing a base load, this distortion may yet be removed. Or knowing our politicians, replaced by some other crazy distortion.
And slamming door to preventing Czechs and other EE countries energy exports to Germany and other western EU countries. Coal mining, deforestation, landscape destruction, etc. Because that system really dumps the energy prices down.
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Old 11.12.2020, 18:32
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Re: The future of wind farms in Switzerland

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It's a good book in some of the concepts and ways of thinking, but it's over ten years old and many of the examples and points have proved to be wrong.

Be aware of that when you read it - I did last year and there were a lot of "huh, that's not true" moments until I realised the age!
Which one? the one about renewables or the one about CO2?

Do you remember if there were huge miscalculations regarding wind?
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